InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yea, if something is very well-known, it means it is certainly true?
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Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.
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There is no reason to doubt this. Might as well doubt Mohammad (s) and his family (a) existed since "history" is not certain.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Except for the Baha'is. They had two people bring new revelation just a few years apart. But the first one, the Bab's, is hardly mentioned and did his laws even go into effect?
Then Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses... What new religion did each of them start? Which new book of God did each of them bring? Were all them real, historical people or just legends?
In my view that was your reasoning when saying Rumi must be a prophet because "Many Iranian people consider him as being inspired by God."
Now you are calling your own line of reasoning into doubt in my view lol
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
That was a response to your statement that, Rumi was just a Poet. He was a Poet, that, with poetry he taught about God, and spirituality.
He was not like a regular poet who, do poetry about worldy things. He was very similar to David who wrote psalms, which has poetry and song in it, but it is all about God and knowing God.
I suggest to read some of his writings. They are quite inspiring and you will see what I mean.
I've read Rumi poetry before. It's good, and in my opinion better than the Quran, but I see nothing infallible about what he said.
It just looks like a religious version of Shakespeare to me, and I see that as easily within the range of human capability.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Rumi said, His writings are Quran, in Persian Language, as if, God has revealed the Quran to him in Persian Language.
(Not a translation of the Quran, but the Essence of Quran in Persian"
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
To understand about Muhammad's teachings, we refer to Quran and His own Hadithes.
Should do the same about Rumi. We know him based on his writings, not based on what people say about him.
How many prophets God sends to humanity based on Hadithes?
I remember 120,000 or so.
I am surprised, why some Muslims cannot consider Rumi as one of them!
Anyways, Rumi is confirmed by Abdulbaha, so, i have no doubt.
Where did he say that?
Wikipedia says, 'The Masnavi, or Masnavi-ye-Ma'navi (Persian: مثنوی معنوی DMG Mas̲navī-e maʻnavī), also written Mathnawi, or Mathnavi, is an extensive poem written in Persian by Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi, also known as Rumi. The Masnavi is one of the most influential works of Sufism, ascribed to be like a "Quran in Persian".[1]'
Source: Masnavi - Wikipedia.
Definition of ascribed from Oxford languages;
- regard a text, quotation, or work of art as being produced by or belonging to (a particular person or period).
"a quotation ascribed to Thomas Cooper"
So according to my understanding to ascribe something is to put your words in someone else's mouth.- In other words it looks like to me that the Persians say that the Masnavi is the Quran in Persian, but I could be wrong, although I dont think Rumi himself said it.
Rumi is not confirmed as a "prophet" by Abdul-Baha, remember my challenge from post #268? You still have not met it in my view.
How do you know what is his writings? The wisdom and meaning behind the dances are ascribed to him just like his writings. So why do you ascribe one and deny the other?
Seems like you are just picking and choosing what suits your caprice just like everything else in your beliefs.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dude, the books of Rumi are among people, and many have been reading them for centuries and Still to this date they are inspiring.
If He was thinking of literally dancing as a spiritual practice, you should be able to find it in his books, and quite it.
Muhammad had said, their people can last only half a Day. Here is another Hadith:
(١١٠١ / ٢) وروي عن النبي صلىاللهعليهوآله : أنَّ في العشر بعد ستمائة الجرح والقتل ، وتمتلىء الأرض ظلماً وجوراً.
وفي العشرين بعدها يقع موت العلماء ، ولا يبقى الرجل بعد الرجل.
وفي الثلاثين ينقص النيل والفرات ، حتى يزرع الناس شطهما.
وفي الأربعين بعدها تمطر السماء الحجر كامثال البيض ، فيهلك فيها البهائم.
وفي الخمسين بعدها ـ تسلط عليهم السباع.
وفي الستين بعدها تنكسف الشمس ، فيموت نصف الجن والإنس.
وفي السبعين بعدها لايولد المؤمن من المؤمن.
وفي الثمانين بعدها تصير النساء كالبهم.
وفي التسعين بعدها تخرج دابة الأرض ، ومعها عصا آدم وخاتم سليمان.
وفي السبعمائة تطلع الشمس سوداء مظلمة ، وتسألوا عما وراءها ».
فِي سَنَةِ سَبْعٍ وَ ثَمَانِينَ وَ سِتِّمِائَةٍ يَظْهَرُ مِنَ الرُّومِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْمُرِيدُ
جامع الأخبار - الشعيري، محمد - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
These hadithes which are attributed to Muhammad are saying that after year 600, the End Time comes. Then it goes on and says, in 687, a man appears from Rum, who they call him the Disciple (المريد).
So, this is consistent with the other Hadithes that state lifespan of Islam is half a day or a day, considering the Bab’s Manifested in year 1260, then about half of that, is in 600s.
Its evidence is in this verse:
He will say: "What number of years did ye stay on earth?"
They will say: "We stayed a day or part of a day: but ask those who keep account."
"Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"
Quran 23:112 - 115
Notice, it is asking, how many years!. Then they will answer a Day or Part of the Day!
By Day, it is mean, a Day of God, or 1000 years.
These are allusions! They are allusions that, when actually Islam End comes, those Muslims who become aware of this and believe in the new Revelation ( become the Baha'is), would know that, the Ummah of Islam, was only to last a Day.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "Your stay (in this world) in comparison to the stay of the nations preceding you, is like the period between 'Asr prayer and the sun set (in comparison to a whole day). The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted on it till midday and then they were unable to carry on. And they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted on it till 'Asr Prayer and then they were unable to carry on, so they were given la reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then you were given the Qur'an and you acted on it till sunset, therefore you were given (a reward equal to) two Qirats each. On that, the people of the Scriptures said, 'These people (Muslims) did less work than we but they took a bigger reward.' Allah said (to them). 'Have I done any oppression to you as regards your rights?' They said, "No." Then Allah said, 'That is My Blessing which I grant to whomsoever I will.' "
And in this Hadith, if you compare, the length of Christianity, Jewish Faith, you would see, in comparison, they Duration of Stay of Muslims, is 1000 years.
I can calculate it.
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It is in the books that are ascribed to him. You don't know what you are talking about. You are picking what you want. The same people who preserved the books you find inspiring preserved the books about the rituals of dancing he invented.Dude, the books of Rumi are among people, and many have been reading them for centuries and Still to this date they are inspiring.
If He was thinking of literally dancing as a spiritual practice, you should be able to find it in his books, and quite it.
Muhammad had said, their people can last only half a Day. Here is another Hadith:
(١١٠١ / ٢) وروي عن النبي صلىاللهعليهوآله : أنَّ في العشر بعد ستمائة الجرح والقتل ، وتمتلىء الأرض ظلماً وجوراً.
وفي العشرين بعدها يقع موت العلماء ، ولا يبقى الرجل بعد الرجل.
وفي الثلاثين ينقص النيل والفرات ، حتى يزرع الناس شطهما.
وفي الأربعين بعدها تمطر السماء الحجر كامثال البيض ، فيهلك فيها البهائم.
وفي الخمسين بعدها ـ تسلط عليهم السباع.
وفي الستين بعدها تنكسف الشمس ، فيموت نصف الجن والإنس.
وفي السبعين بعدها لايولد المؤمن من المؤمن.
وفي الثمانين بعدها تصير النساء كالبهم.
وفي التسعين بعدها تخرج دابة الأرض ، ومعها عصا آدم وخاتم سليمان.
وفي السبعمائة تطلع الشمس سوداء مظلمة ، وتسألوا عما وراءها ».
فِي سَنَةِ سَبْعٍ وَ ثَمَانِينَ وَ سِتِّمِائَةٍ يَظْهَرُ مِنَ الرُّومِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْمُرِيدُ
جامع الأخبار - الشعيري، محمد - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
lib.eshia.ir
These hadithes which are attributed to Muhammad are saying that after year 600, the End Time comes. Then it goes on and says, in 687, a man appears who from Rum, who they call him the Disciple (المريد).
So, this is consistent with the other Hadithes that state lifespan of Islam is half a day or a day, considering the Bab’s Manifested in year 1260, then about half of that, is in 600s.
Its evidence is in this verse:
He will say: "What number of years did ye stay on earth?"
They will say: "We stayed a day or part of a day: but ask those who keep account."
"Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"
Quran 23:112 - 115
Notice, it is asking, how many years!. Then they will answer a Day or Part of the Day!
By Day, it is mean, a Day of God, or 1000 years.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "Your stay (in this world) in comparison to the stay of the nations preceding you, is like the period between 'Asr prayer and the sun set (in comparison to a whole day). The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted on it till midday and then they were unable to carry on. And they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted on it till 'Asr Prayer and then they were unable to carry on, so they were given la reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then you were given the Qur'an and you acted on it till sunset, therefore you were given (a reward equal to) two Qirats each. On that, the people of the Scriptures said, 'These people (Muslims) did less work than we but they took a bigger reward.' Allah said (to them). 'Have I done any oppression to you as regards your rights?' They said, "No." Then Allah said, 'That is My Blessing which I grant to whomsoever I will.' "
Here is a link to a book: https://www.amazon.ca/Rumi-Whirling-Dervishes-Shems-Friedlander/dp/0930407598
Have a read about it and let me know if it's in his writings or not. This is not disputed, it's a well known fact.
Have a read about it and let me know if it's in his writings or not. This is not disputed, it's a well known fact.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Rumi's best-known work is the Maṭnawīye Ma'nawī (Spiritual Couplets; مثنوی معنوی). The six-volume poem holds a distinguished place within the rich tradition of Persian Sufi literature, and has been commonly called "the Quran in Persian".[63][64]
Rumi - Wikipedia
What's your point? Sahifa Sajjadiya is called the ascending Quran or Psalms of Islam, does not make Imam Zainal Abideen (a) a Nabi.Rumi's best-known work is the Maṭnawīye Ma'nawī (Spiritual Couplets; مثنوی معنوی). The six-volume poem holds a distinguished place within the rich tradition of Persian Sufi literature, and has been commonly called "the Quran in Persian".[63][64]
Rumi - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
For someone to be a Nabi, one does not have to say, Hey everyone, I am a Nabi.
At the same time, if someone claims is a Nabi, it doesnt mean he really is.
We know Prophets by their knowledge and Wisdom.
I don't consider the Shia Imams less than Nabi or A Prophet.
But they are just not a Ulul-Azm Messenger, meaning they did not reveal a new Shariah Law. They promoted the Religion of their time.
Rumi, was a promoter if true Islam.
Same as some of the Jewish Prophets.
Mind you, some of the Jewish men who according to Quran were Prophets, are not considered to be a Prophet by the Jews themselves. It is just that always, the next Revelation confirms some of the previous prophets.
You make up stuff as you go.