Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[Link]

I am sorry i dont follow what you are saying.

John was yonger than Jesus by about 4 years.

Remember you are talking a successor must be a son, or grand son of previous prophet Jesus was not so or grandson of John. In fact Jesus was older than Yahya (John).

Beside this, Baha'u'llah had answered the correct understanding of Hadithes that talks about Mahdi being son of Hassan:

All that thou hast heard regarding Muḥammad the son of Ḥasan—may the souls of all that are immersed in the oceans of the spirit be offered up for His sake—is true beyond the shadow of
a doubt, and we all verily bear allegiance unto Him. But the imáms of the Faith have fixed His abode in the city of Jábulqá, which they have depicted in strange and marvellous signs. To interpret this city according to the literal meaning of the tradition would indeed prove impossible, nor can such a city ever be found.
Wert thou to search the uttermost corners of the earth, nay probe its length and breadth for as long as God’s eternity hath lasted and His sovereignty will endure, thou wouldst never find a city such as they have described, for the entirety of the earth could neither contain nor encompass it.

If thou wouldst lead Me unto this city, I could assuredly lead thee unto this holy Being, Whom the people have conceived according to what they possess and not to that which pertaineth unto Him! Since this is not in thy power, thou hast no recourse but to interpret symbolically the accounts and traditions that have been reported from these luminous souls.

And, as such an interpretation is needed for the traditions pertaining to the aforementioned city, so too is it required for this holy Being. When thou hast understood this interpretation, thou shalt no longer stand in need of “transformation” or aught else.


Know then that, inasmuch as all the Prophets are but one and the same soul, spirit, name, and attribute, thou must likewise see them all as bearing the name Muḥammad and as being the son of Ḥasan, as having appeared from the Jábulqá of God’s power and from the Jábulṣá of His mercy.

For by Jábulqá is meant none other than the treasure-houses of eternity in the all highest heaven and the cities of the unseen in the supernal realm. We bear witness that Muḥammad, the son of Ḥasan, was indeed in Jábulqá and appeared therefrom. Likewise, He Whom God shall make manifest abideth in that city until such time as God will have established Him upon the seat of His sovereignty. We, verily, acknowledge this truth and bear allegiance unto each and every one of them. We have chosen here to be brief in our elucidation of the meanings of Jábulqá, but if thou be of them that truly believe, thou shalt indeed comprehend all the true meanings of the mysteries enshrined within these Tablets.

But as to Him Who appeared in the year sixty, He standeth in need of neither transformation nor interpretation, for His name was Muḥammad, and He was a descendent of the Imáms of the Faith. Thus it can be truly said of Him that He was the son of Ḥasan, as is undoubtedly clear and evident unto thine eminence. Nay, He it is Who fashioned that name and created it for Himself, were ye to observe with the eye of God.

Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries

This interpretation of "all chosen ones are all chosen ones" and "all sons of each other" get's boring. It's pathetic sophistry. Inshallah, not much people ever give into such conjecture.

 

[Bthoth]

It means if Imam Jaffar (a) says "my son will do this and this", don't deny it, even if it's not Musa (a) but another Imam (a) in his offspring.

You do enjoy the exceptionalism of an offspring.

I doubt that the gawds are as foolish as people.

 

[Bthoth]

This interpretation of "all chosen ones are all chosen ones" get's boring. It's pathetic sophistry. Inshallah, not much people ever give into such conjecture.

That is exactly what you are doing. AS if a gawd chose which lineage is better than another.

IN the real world, that type of yada yada is a nada. Each person is capable without ever knowing who the parents are.

 

[Link]

That is exactly what you are doing. AS if a gawd chose which lineage is better than another.

IN the real world, that type of yada yada is a nada. Each person is capable without ever knowing who the parents are.

The problem with not putting kinship and lineage, it makes it open season for everyone to claim divine leadership or Prophethood.

 

[Bthoth]

The problem with not putting kinship and lineage, it makes it open season for everyone to claim divine leadership or Prophethood.

If a person can add solid information and leadership skills, the individual should not be discounted because of their gender, race or lineage.

IN contrast trusting that a person is good based on their lineage is a form of bigotry (stupidity).

Do you realize the very argument that you are using has roots in everything from egyptian culture thru to judaism and the division of sunni/shia (muslims)?

 

[Link]

If a person can add solid information and leadership skills, the individual should not be discounted because of their gender, race or lineage.

IN contrast trusting that a person is good based on their lineage is a form of bigotry (stupidity).

Do you realize the very argument that you are using has roots in everything from egyptian culture thru to judaism and the division of sunni/shia (muslims)?

You don't believe in chosen leadership from God. In the sense of general leadership a person can rise to and help humanity through, I agree with you. But I'm talking about divinely chosen leadership.

 

[Bthoth]

You don't believe in chosen leadership from God.

I comprehend equality as a natural part of my fiber. I was never raised in a household or environment of bigotry.

In the sense of general leadership a person can rise to and help humanity through, I agree with you.

Why would that not apply in religion?

But I'm talking about divinely chosen leadership.

No such thing. The egyptian house of pharaoh had the same problem and even inbred to keep that ideology.

It should be completely removed from civilized cultures no matter the religion.

fact stands: no god ever said a word nor chose anyone over another.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This interpretation of "all chosen ones are all chosen ones" and "all sons of each other" get's boring. It's pathetic sophistry. Inshallah, not much people ever give into such conjecture.

I think the unity of Prophets, is one of the main teachings in Islam, which was forgotten. It is in the Mission of the Qaim to revive the original Islam, which the Ulama have deviated from.

النبيين رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، والصديقين علي

تفسير القمي - القمي، علي بن ابراهيم - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Muhammad said, I am all Prophets
(النبيين فأناَ)

And When Qaim comes, He says, whoever wants to see from Adam to Muhammad and all other Imams, He is Them All:

وبالاسناد عن الفضل ، عن ابن محبوب رفعه إلى أبي جعفر 7 قال : إذا خسف بجيش السفياني إلى أن قال : والقائم يومئذ بمكة عند الكعبة مستجيرا بها يقول : أنا ولي الله أنا أولى بالله وبمحمد 9 فمن حاجني في آدم فأنا أولى الناس بآدم ، ومن حاجني في نوح فأنا ولى الناس بنوح ، ومن حاجني في إبراهيم فأنا أولى الناس بابراهيم ، ومن حاجني في محمد فأنا أولى الناس بمحمد ، ومن حاجني في النبيين فأنا أولى الناس بالنبيين إن الله تعالى يقول : « إن الله اصطفى آدم ونوحا وآل إبراهيم وآل عمران على العالمين ذرية بعضها من بعض والله سميع عليم » [١] فأنا بقية آدم ، وخيرة نوح ، ومصطفى إبراهيم ، وصفوة محمد ألا ومن حاجني في كتاب الله فأنا أولى الناس بكتاب الله ، ألا ومن حاجني في سنة رسول الله فأنا أولى

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The problem with not putting kinship and lineage, it makes it open season for everyone to claim divine leadership or Prophethood.

The main issue in Islam is Schism and division. Muhammad had come to unite, which was successful to a degree and to a time, But now nothing is left of Islam, except war, conflicts and tyranny of its leaders.

 

[Link]

The main issue in Islam is Schism and division. Muhammad had come to unite, which was successful to a degree and to a time, But now nothing is left of Islam, except war, conflicts and tyranny of its leaders.

That nothing left is your call. Those things occur, but that's not all there is.

 

[Link]

I think the unity of Prophets, is one of the main teachings in Islam, which was forgotten. It is in the Mission of the Qaim to revive the original Islam, which the Ulama have deviated from.

النبيين رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، والصديقين علي

تفسير القمي - القمي، علي بن ابراهيم - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Muhammad said, I am all Prophets
(النبيين فأناَ)

And When Qaim comes, He says, whoever wants to see from Adam to Muhammad and all other Imams, He is Them All:

وبالاسناد عن الفضل ، عن ابن محبوب رفعه إلى أبي جعفر 7 قال : إذا خسف بجيش السفياني إلى أن قال : والقائم يومئذ بمكة عند الكعبة مستجيرا بها يقول : أنا ولي الله أنا أولى بالله وبمحمد 9 فمن حاجني في آدم فأنا أولى الناس بآدم ، ومن حاجني في نوح فأنا ولى الناس بنوح ، ومن حاجني في إبراهيم فأنا أولى الناس بابراهيم ، ومن حاجني في محمد فأنا أولى الناس بمحمد ، ومن حاجني في النبيين فأنا أولى الناس بالنبيين إن الله تعالى يقول : « إن الله اصطفى آدم ونوحا وآل إبراهيم وآل عمران على العالمين ذرية بعضها من بعض والله سميع عليم » [١] فأنا بقية آدم ، وخيرة نوح ، ومصطفى إبراهيم ، وصفوة محمد ألا ومن حاجني في كتاب الله فأنا أولى الناس بكتاب الله ، ألا ومن حاجني في سنة رسول الله فأنا أولى

How do you translate that to "I am all Prophets", I looked at the hadith and verse, this shows you aren't familiar with the style of hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) and Quran.

 

[Link]

I think the unity of Prophets, is one of the main teachings in Islam, which was forgotten. It is in the Mission of the Qaim to revive the original Islam, which the Ulama have deviated from.

النبيين رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، والصديقين علي

تفسير القمي - القمي، علي بن ابراهيم - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Muhammad said, I am all Prophets
(النبيين فأناَ)

And When Qaim comes, He says, whoever wants to see from Adam to Muhammad and all other Imams, He is Them All:

وبالاسناد عن الفضل ، عن ابن محبوب رفعه إلى أبي جعفر 7 قال : إذا خسف بجيش السفياني إلى أن قال : والقائم يومئذ بمكة عند الكعبة مستجيرا بها يقول : أنا ولي الله أنا أولى بالله وبمحمد 9 فمن حاجني في آدم فأنا أولى الناس بآدم ، ومن حاجني في نوح فأنا ولى الناس بنوح ، ومن حاجني في إبراهيم فأنا أولى الناس بابراهيم ، ومن حاجني في محمد فأنا أولى الناس بمحمد ، ومن حاجني في النبيين فأنا أولى الناس بالنبيين إن الله تعالى يقول : « إن الله اصطفى آدم ونوحا وآل إبراهيم وآل عمران على العالمين ذرية بعضها من بعض والله سميع عليم » [١] فأنا بقية آدم ، وخيرة نوح ، ومصطفى إبراهيم ، وصفوة محمد ألا ومن حاجني في كتاب الله فأنا أولى الناس بكتاب الله ، ألا ومن حاجني في سنة رسول الله فأنا أولى

He says "he is Awla to them" meaning he has more right to them. He says he has the most right to the Prophets. Why do you mistranslate hadiths?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That nothing left is your call. Those things occur, but that's not all there is.

Amr from Shuraih bin Ubaid from Amr Bakai from Kaabul Ahbar that he said:

“The Caliphs are Twelve. When their demise approaches and a virtuous
generation comes, Allah will prolong their lives. Such has Allah promised this
Ummah. Then he recited:

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُم فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا
اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ

“Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them…” (Surah Nur 24:55)

He said: “Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.”



"They say: "When will this promise (come to pass) if ye are telling the truth?"

Say: “There has been appointed for you a Day, which you can neither delay nor advance by a single moment.” Quran 34:29-30

قُلْ لَّـكُمۡ مِّيۡعَادُ يَوۡمٍ لَّا تَسۡتَاْخِرُوۡنَ عَنۡهُ سَاعَةً وَّلَا تَسۡتَقۡدِمُوۡنَ

قل = Say
لكم = For you
ميعاد = appointed
يوم = a Day

Ayah Saba` (Saba, Sheba) 34:30

(22:47) They ask you to hasten the punishment. Allah shall most certainly not fail His promise; but a Day with your Lord is as a thousand years of your reckoning.


قال رسول الله

"ان صلحت امتی فلها یوم و ان فسدت‌ فلها نصف یوم"

"The Prophet said, If my Ummah is upright, a Day is ordained for it, and if it becomes corrupted, half a Day"

 

[danieldemol]

"The Prophet said, If my Ummah is upright, a Day is ordained for it, and if it becomes corrupted, half a Day"

That's interesting because Baha'i seem to be essentially asserting that the Muslim Ummah became corrupted, so that means it should have been renewed 500 years after Muhammad not a thousand years if you apply your interpretation consistently in my view.

That makes the Bab more than a little late as I see it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's interesting because Baha'i seem to be essentially asserting that the Muslim Ummah became corrupted, so that means it should have been renewed 500 years after Muhammad not a thousand years if you apply your interpretation consistently in my view.

That makes the Bab more than a little late as I see it.

The tree of Islam was fruitful for a thousand years. The schism within Islam which occurred after the Prophet, did not cause Tree of Islam to be corrupted, because in parallel the Shia Imams continued to be the leaders.

 

[danieldemol]

The tree of Islam was fruitful for a thousand years. The schism within Islam which occurred after the Prophet, did not cause Tree of Islam to be corrupted, because in parallel the Shia Imams continued to be the leaders.

The 11th Shia Imam passed on in 874.

So it is a curious saying to say the tree of Islam did not get corrupted because the Imams continued to be the leaders, because the Shia Imams are still the leaders of the Shia faith in the sense you refer to in my view.

In the other sense they stopped being the leaders in 874 as I see it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The 11th Shia Imam passed on in 874.

So it is a curious saying to say the tree of Islam did not get corrupted because the Imams continued to be the leaders, because the Shia Imams are still the leaders of the Shia faith in the sense you refer to in my view.

In the other sense they stopped being the leaders in 874 as I see it.

The Shia faith continued up until the year AH 1260. The 2 x forerunners to the Bab, the Bab and Baha'u'llah came from the Shia Line.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The Shia faith continued up until the year AH 1260. The 2 x forerunners to the Bab, the Bab and Baha'u'llah came from the Shia Line.

Regards Tony

But you can't say the Shia faith got corrupted according to consistent extension of @InvestigateTruth logic argument, because the Shia Imams are still the head of the Shia faith in my view. InvestigateTruth wants to have her cake and eat it because she needs the Shia faith to be both corrupted and not corrupted simultaneously to fit her interpretation accurately as I see it.

Your empty assertion which does not fit the hadith are unhelpful in this matter of interpreting the hadith wich investigatetruth has failed to interpret consistently in my view.

Of course if you dont value logic functions such as consistency this is not a problem

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The 11th Shia Imam passed on in 874.

So it is a curious saying to say the tree of Islam did not get corrupted because the Imams continued to be the leaders, because the Shia Imams are still the leaders of the Shia faith in the sense you refer to in my view.

In the other sense they stopped being the leaders in 874 as I see it.

Yes, I mean, the Imam teachings were among Muslims in the following centuries. So, they had the guide.
Also as Abdulbaha says, when 500 years passed, Rumi renewed Islam, so, it lasted another 500 years after that, till 1844, when it was its end time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you can't say the Shia faith got corrupted according to consistent extension of @InvestigateTruth logic argument, because the Shia Imams are still the head of the Shia faith in my view. InvestigateTruth wants to have her cake and eat it because she needs the Shia faith to be both corrupted and not corrupted simultaneously to fit her interpretation accurately as I see it.

Your empty assertion which does not fit the hadith are unhelpful in this matter of interpreting the hadith wich investigatetruth has failed to interpret consistently in my view.

Of course if you dont value logic functions such as consistency this is not a problem

What one has to consider is that it is God that gives the lines of truth and also allows the lines that are false. The light and darkness are interactive in this matrix.

It is consistent with the most earliest passages we have in the Bible.

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

This theme is found in all the Holy Books, the Kitab-i-iqan explains it in great detail.

Regards Tony