InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You need to prove this reasoning. Can you prove it by Hadith and Quran?
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Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.
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The Quran suffices as a miracle. Even Sunnis who don't see Ahlulbayt (a) there can show many linguistic miracles and know by the sound of it it's a miracle. So this is a good start point.
The message with the proper interpretation shows Imam Mahdi (a) is alive, and there is journey process with that often with hadiths and Quran. However, we say in Ziyarat to Imam Mahdi (a) that whoever desires a path other then him will go to hell and perish. It's not that he is an option. He needs to sought after. But he is not in public, so we pray to God and pray that we be guided by his hands as many of the prayers including Du'a Zaman Al-Ghayba from Imam Jaffar (a) teach us to pray.
There is this Du'a which confirms what I just stated about the three verses I quoted in 13th Surah: Dua Marefat-Allahumma Arrifni- Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) Duas.org
اَللَّهُمَّ إنِّي اسْالُكَ انْ تُرِيَنِي وَلِيَّ ٱلامْرِ
allahumma inni as'aluka an turiyani waliyya al-amri
O Allah, I beseech You to allow me to see the Representative,
ظَاهِراً نَافِذَ ٱلامْرِ
zahiran nafidha al-amri
apparent and prevalent,
مَعَ عِلْمِي بِانَّ لَكَ ٱلسُّلْطَانَ وَٱلْقُدْرَةَ
ma`a `ilmi bi-anna laka alssultana wa alqudrata
with that knowledge that all authority, power,
وَٱلْبُرْهَانَ وَٱلْحُجَّةَ
wa alburhana wa alhujjata
potency, argument,
وَٱلْمَشِيَّةَ وَٱلْحَوْلَ وَٱلْقُوَّةَ
wa almashi'ata wa lhawla wa alquwwata
volition, might, and strength are Yours [alone].
فَٱفْعَلْ ذٰلِكَ بِي وَبِجَمِيعِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ
faf`al dhalika bi wa bijami`i almu'minina
So, do this to me and to all the believers
حَتَّىٰ نَنْظُرَ إلَىٰ وَلِيِّكَ صَلَوَاتُكَ عَلَيْهِ
hatta nanzura ila waliyyika salawatuka `alayhi
so that we will look towards Your representative, Your peace be upon him,
ظَاهِرَ ٱلْمَقَالَةِ
zahira almaqalati
while he is evident in claim,
وَاضِحَ ٱلدِّلاَلَةِ
wadiha alddilalati
manifest in proof,
هَادِياً مِنَ ٱلضَّلاَلَةِ
hadiyan mina alddalalati
guiding from deviation,
شَافِياً مِنَ ٱلجَهَالَةِ
shafi`an mina aljahalati
and healing from ignorance.
ابْرِزْ يَا رَبِّ مُشَاهَدَتَهُ
abriz ya rabbi mushahadatahu
O my Lord, make the looking at him eminent,
وَثَبِّتْ قَوَاعِدَهُ
wa thabbit qawa`idahu
make firm his bases,
وَٱجْعَلْنَا مِمَّنْ تَقَرُّ عَيْنُهُ بِرُؤْيَتِهِ
waj`alna mimman taqarru `aynuhu biru'yatihi
make us of those whose eyes are delighted by seeing him,
وَاقِمْنَا بِخِدْمَتِهِ
wa aqimna bikhidmatihi
employ us to serve him,
وَتَوَفَّنَا عَلَىٰ مِلَّتِهِ
wa tawaffana `ala millatihi
make us die following his creed,
وَٱحْشُرْنَا فِي زُمْرَتِهِ
wa ihshurna fi zumratihi
and include us with his group.
There is also Du'a Nudba, others, that teach similar as this.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is a claim that it is a miracle, by linguistic or so. How do you prove it is miracle? I mean anybody can claim our Holy Book is a miracle, because we believe it is miracle. How do we know, this is true though?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This Dua means, God may allow that Ummah of Islam or Shia to recognize Him, when He rises.
I dont know how you want to conclude this Dua means, Mahdi was born and hidden somewhere.
That's not what it says. It asks foremost for us as individual and for all believers, not just believers at the time of his rise. The inclusive of "make me see", is taught, that it will happen. This is not possible if it just means his rise.
You study it. You might be use to your holy texts which are not miracles, and so think the Quran is just subjective like that but it's not.
And you can make use of what people point out of it's subtle signs.
Mahdi was born? When? If you have a time frame, did you ever consider instead of hidden but hiding by choice?
Thanks for the interpretations to be included.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
If Mahdi is hidden how would you see him? You need to prove this, with clear verses, which are interpreted as such by Hadithes.
I still havent got the answer for that.
So, you said, you had seen him, but you dont want to disclose it, because his name will be known?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
@Link
how do you know this Dua is from Mahdi?
You need to fist prove, there was a Mahdi born, and then, also prove this Dua is from the mahdi.
I suggest to look at Dua Nudba. That Dua was revealed by the Imams, that the history proves they lived.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
When we look at Hadithes from the Imams, there is no such things that, Mahdi will be born and then will be hidden or that He magically shows himself to some before His rise. The Hadithes are all about His Rise.
Umar bin Abdul Aziz narrated from Abi Abdullah (a.s.) that he said:
“When days and nights pass in such a condition that you are unable to see the Imam whom you can follow, you must continue to love what you love
and continue to hate what you hate till Allah, the Mighty and Sublime brings
him out.
See, here Imam Sadigh appears to be speaking to a Person in his own time, about Imam Mahdi, who God will bring Him out. Obviously Mahdi was not going to appear in his time. But the untention of these Hadithes, is to be a guide for the People of His time to be ready for His acceptance. These prayers were meant to keep the expectation alive until Mahdi comes, while at the same time create a hope within Shia sect.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
When we look at Hadithes from the Imams, there is no such things that, Mahdi will be born and then will be hidden or that He magically shows himself to some before His rise. The Hadithes are all about His Rise.
Umar bin Abdul Aziz narrated from Abi Abdullah (a.s.) that he said:
“When days and nights pass in such a condition that you are unable to see the Imam whom you can follow, you must continue to love what you love
and continue to hate what you hate till Allah, the Mighty and Sublime brings
him out.
See, here Imam Sadigh appears to be speaking to a person who was living at the time, about Imam Mahdi, who God will bring Him out in future. Obviously Mahdi was not going to appear in his time. But the intention of these Hadithes, is to be a guide for the People at the time of Rising, so they be ready for His acceptance. The prayers were also meant to keep the expectation alive until Mahdi comes, while at the same time create a hope within Shia sect. Of you read this Hadith carefully you would know:
Muhammad bin Isa from Uthman bin Isa Kilabi from Khalid bin Najih from Zurarah bin Ayyan that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say:
“There is an occultation for the Qaim before his reappearance.”
I asked: “Why is it so?” He replied: “He is fearful.” And he pointed towards his belly, implying that the Qaim fears for his life. Then he said: “O Zurarah; and he is that awaited one and he is the one in whose birth they shall doubt. Thus some
will say: His father died heirless and some will say: He was in the womb of his mother when his father died. Some others will allege that he was born two years before the passing away of his father. And he is the Awaited one;
but the Almighty Allah likes to test the Shia. It is the time when people of falsehood will fall in doubts.”
Zurarah says: I asked: “If I am able to live till that period, what action I should perform?”
He replied: “O Zurarah if you live till that time you must recite the following supplication:
اللهم عرفني نفسك ، فإنك إن لم تعرفني نفسك لم أعرف نبيك، اللهم عرفني نبيك
فإنك إن لم تعرفني نبيك لم أعرف حجتك ، اللهم عرفني حجتك فإنك إن لم تعرفني
حجتك ضللت عن ديني
‘O Allah introduce Yourself to me. For if You don’t introduce Yourself to me, I will not recognize Your Prophet. O Allah introduce Your Messenger to me for if You don’t introduce Your Messenger to me, I will not recognize Your Proof. O Allah introduce Your proof to me for if You don’t introduce Your proof to me, I will deviate in my religion.’فإنك إن لم تعرفني نبيك لم أعرف حجتك ، اللهم عرفني حجتك فإنك إن لم تعرفني
حجتك ضللت عن ديني
Then he said: O Zurarah, at that time a youth will be killed in Medina. I asked: May I be sacrificed on you, would the army of Sufyani kill this youth?
He replied: No, the forces of so-and-so tribe will kill him. Those forces will enter Medina, accost this young man and kill him. This murder will be a rebellion against divine ordinances and injustice and now Allah will not give much respite. At that time the Imam will reappear.”
Notice, even it was not possible for the Qaim to appear at that time, yet, Sadiq teaches him what to pray. This is only to teach about the importance of waiting for the Mahdi.
Also notice, it says, there is a occultation before Mahdi's reappearance. Meaning one Mahdi have appeared, then He disappears for some time. I had alreayd quoted another Hadith and proved it before.
Also there is yet another hint in the Hadith, which I underlined above.
"The Bab’s father passed away when He was a toddler, so His maternal uncle took Him in and raised Him. This uncle was a very skilled merchant in Shiraz and so the Bab grew up being a merchant as well." The Life of the Bab | Baha'i Blog
In the Qayyumu’l-Asma, Surih al-Jihad, verse 39, the Báb states,
“O My God, My Lord! Verily in Thy will, My father passed away and I do not remember Him. My Master, when he is seated with the heavenly angels, inform him of My Cause and record him in this Mighty Book.”
Did you understand the hint? It says, the True Mahdi, is He who will be said about Him that, His father passed away when He was two years old! This matches with the Bab. But it does not match with the alleged imaginary Mahdi who was born more than 1000 years ago!
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The problem is not that we don't have hadiths showing all this. Is that you play sophistry with both the Quran and hadiths. For example, there is a book with 40 authentic hadiths naming the Twelve Imams. Imam Mahdi (a) is said to be son of Hassan Al-Askari (a). And so you can conclude he is alive by that. But you will say it's metaphorical birth and refers to the Bab or Baha'allah. No one can win with you because of how you play with language. Unfortunately I can't help you. You are going to have to be sincere and solve how you approach Quran and hadiths.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
But you didnt consider that, according to Quran, Allah said, Jesus is Son of Imran (عمران), but it turned out to be different. And Hadithes refers to this verse, saying the same is applicable to 12th Imam, being son of Hassan.
I suggest you consider, why Allah said Jesus is son of Imran? Or why Marry is called sister of Aaron? Why in Hadithes Jesus is called Muhammad's brother, then why do you have issue to say, the Bab was son of Hassan?
Therefore, Why do you think when Imams said, Qaim will be son of Hassan, they meant physically? Didnt the Imam say, He will be born during the End Time?
This sonship, brotherhood can be spiritual. Jesus said, He is son of God!
God and prophets do not speak so much literally. They speak more spiritual, in my view.
And in both cases, neither Jesus nor Muhammad wrote a word of the respective dialogue being used.
I think the hadith shows it's literal, because all the previous Imams (a) are literally the sons. Also, it doesn't make sense to say Mohammad (s) is son of Jesus (a) but it can make sense to say grandson is a son of so and so.
Do you ever stop and think, that you have made it impossible for God to say certain things just by simply how language works and how you play with it.
You don't see the context of what he says.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
No, if we are speaking literally it does not make sense to say a grandchild is son of his grandfather.
So, again, you need to consider why the Quran said, Jesus is son of Imran, and also consider why would the Imams refer to this verse while they were talking about the Qaim? How would this verses is applicable to the Qaim?
They didn't refer it to the Qaim. They say if we say it regarding one of us, for example, we say in Ziyarats "O the son of Messenger of God". This is fine.
To even care who is the son of which, is an example of inherent bigotry. The child is not responsible for what the parent did and the parent is not responsible for what the child does.
But to ever consider a lineage as an importance of credibility is just bigotry and should be removed from the civilized world
In Quran, God shows that he uses lineage and kinship to funnel out false claimants. For example, in the prayer of Zakariya (a), we see he is afraid of his relatives who can claim more closer kinship then Jesus (a) to Zakariya (a), therefore Zakariya (a) prays for Yahya (a) who would prepare for Isa (a). Yahya (a) would not have children, so then Isa (a) would become closest in kinship to Yahya (a).
Bahai Faith fails this test really as well. Baha'allah was not closely related to the Bab.