Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[InvestigateTruth]

The Sunni ones have two kind of hadiths. "The guide is a man from Bani-Hashim" and the other is that Mohammad (s) said "I am the warner and then said to Ali, and you are the guide".

The Shia ones repeat it and many indicate there is never a time without a leader on earth. Even Du'a Nudba says before Ali (a) was appointed "in that he was the warner and for every people there is a guide" as a proof for Ghadeer declaration in the Quran.

The thing is it mentions "sign" regarding Mohammad (s). There is a whole series of responses to that, but it means miracle in real time, there was always a guide to provide that. But we know this is not true of guides in the open, as period between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s), there was not a public guide performing miracles. But this verse is a proof that miracles are always present, something we say in Du'a Nudba too, "O son of the miracles that are still present".

This verses indicates, there is never a time without a Guide on earth who can perform miracles to prove he is God's trustee.

Sorry, I dont understand why Miracles is related to the Question of "How we know an Imam was born", and if :a person by the Name Khizr physically is alive".

Perhaps you can first tell, why do you think there cannot be a time the earth is without a leader? What do you mean by a leader? What does a leader supposed to do, that needs to be always on earth?

 

[Link]

Sorry, I dont understand why Miracles is related to the Question of "How we know an Imam was born", and if :a person by the Name Khizr physically is alive".

Perhaps you can first tell, why do you think there cannot be a time the earth is without a leader? What do you mean by a leader? What does a leader supposed to do, that needs to be always on earth?

The verse mentions it with the topic, so obviously it's related and it's to give it context. In the context of the sign from God disbelievers were saying should be sent regarding Mohammad (s), the Quran says all you can do is warn them, and in fact, there is for every people a guide who can perform such miracles and that God proves through such signs.

Since the signs after death of Mohammad (s) are no longer provable ways for disbelievers, for example, as you seen in the moon miracle thread you have, no one believes it happened except Muslims, the Quran points to the fact, there is for every people a guide who can perform and be proven by such signs the disbelievers were demanding.

There is a guide who can perform these miracles, Mohammad (s) is not alive to perform such miracles, but per Quran there is always a guide who can. So Ali (a) was the guide after Mohammad (s) to perform such miracles and so in continues with the Imams (a).

Khidr (a) being alive is known through ahadith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The verse mentions it with the topic, so obviously it's related and it's to give it context. In the context of the sign from God disbelievers were saying should be sent regarding Mohammad (s), the Quran says all you can do is warn them, and in fact, there is for every people a guide who can perform such miracles and that God proves through such signs.

Since the signs after death of Mohammad (s) are no longer provable ways for disbelievers, for example, as you seen in the moon miracle thread you have, no one believes it happened except Muslims, the Quran points to the fact, there is for every people a guide who can perform and be proven by such signs the disbelievers were demanding.

There is a guide who can perform these miracles, Mohammad (s) is not alive to perform such miracles, but per Quran there is always a guide who can. So Ali (a) was the guide after Mohammad (s) to perform such miracles and so in continues with the Imams (a).

Khidr (a) being alive is known through ahadith.

Ok, so you are saying, the reason there must be a leader at all time, is to perform Miracles for disbelievers.
so, you are saying therefore, now, Khizr and Imam Mahdi must be alive to do the Miracles for disbelievers, however because people would not believe in Miracles nowadays, they are hidden for now.

Did I understand you correctly?

 

[Link]

Ok, so you are saying, the reason there must be a leader at all time, is to perform Miracles for disbelievers.
so, you are saying therefore, now, Khizr and Imam Mahdi must be alive to do the Miracles for disbelievers, however because people would not believe in Miracles nowadays, they are hidden for now.

Did I understand you correctly?

There is always for every people a guide who can perform such miracles. Disbelievers don't benefit from miracles from guide in the open or hidden. You might be wondering then how do people access the guide now. The chapter emphasizes with repeating the same objection:


وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ | The faithless say, ‘Why has not some sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people. | Ar-Ra'd : 7

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ أَنَابَ | The faithless say, ‘Why has not some sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘Indeed Allah leads astray whomever He wishes, and guides to Himself/It(the sign) those who turn penitently [to Him] | Ar-Ra'd : 27

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً ۚ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ | Certainly We have sent apostles before you, and We appointed for them wives and descendants; and an apostle may not bring a sign except by Allah’s leave. There is a written [ordinance] for every term: | Ar-Ra'd : 38


So if we turn to God often, he will show us the signs by the hands of the Guide of the time.

 

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Mohammad's (s) can only warn disbelievers through the miracles/signs, and there is for every people a guide (who performs such signs) means it's supposed to guide them to truth but their disbelief makes them not perceive the miracles as proof.

However, an easy means to be guided to this proof, is to turn towards God often and ask him to be guided to it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So if we turn to God often, he will show us the signs by the hands of the Guide of the time.

Sorry, i am not following.
You are saying the reason that Khizr and Mahdi, and maybe some other Prophets are kept alive, is to perform Miracles for disbelievers. But disbelievers would not believe, so, that is why He is not doing any miracles.

then you are saying, therefore, they will do miracles only for the believers instead, and whenever the believers turn to God, He will show them signs by the Hands of the guide of the time?
Can you please tell me those signs that the Shia believers are receiving by the hands of the Guide of the time?
What signs have you been seeing from Khizr and Imam Mahdi?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mohammad's (s) can only warn disbelievers through the miracles/signs, and there is for every people a guide (who performs such signs) means it's supposed to guide them to truth but their disbelief makes them not perceive the miracles as proof.

However, an easy means to be guided to this proof, is to turn towards God often and ask him to be guided to it.

I am sorry, but i am not following. We are talking about why you know Mahdi and Khizr are alive. Remember that?

So, if someone turns often to God and ask him to be guided, what happens? Khizr and Mahdi appear in front of them and start doing Miracles?

 

[Link]

Sorry, i am not following.
You are saying the reason that Khizr and Mahdi, and maybe some other Prophets are kept alive, is to perform Miracles for disbelievers. But disbelievers would not believe, so, that is why He is not doing any miracles.

then you are saying, therefore, they will do miracles only for the believers instead, and whenever the believers turn to God, He will show them signs by the Hands of the guide of the time?
Can you please tell me those signs that the Shia believers are receiving by the hands of the Guide of the time?
What signs have you been seeing from Khizr and Imam Mahdi?

Shiites are all ordered when they see such things not to disclose it. I remember there was a speaker last Ashura, and he mentioned how all Shiites see Imam Mahdi (a) eventually, and that he was saying how many of us here have met him, but we keep it secret.

 

[Link]

So, if someone turns often to God and ask him to be guided, what happens? Khizr and Mahdi appear in front of them and start doing Miracles?

Imam Mahdi (a) will guide anyone who turns to God often and meet with him in person.

 

[Link]

The Quran shows Imam Mahdi (a) is the straight path in this day and age, and so it's up to you if you wish God to guide on this path or follow another.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Shiites are all ordered when they see such things not to disclose it. I remember there was a speaker last Ashura, and he mentioned how all Shiites see Imam Mahdi (a) eventually, and that he was saying how many of us here have met him, but we keep it secret.

Who ordered them, and why?

 

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Who ordered them, and why?

Imam Mahdi (a). So there would be no commotion and people who have not met him do not end up using his name for Dunya leadership and to create havoc.

 

[Link]

The only people allowed I would say is who Imam Mahdi (a) has given permission. But it's mostly, he does not.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran shows Imam Mahdi (a) is the straight path in this day and age, and so it's up to you if you wish God to guide on this path or follow another.

The question is, how do we know Imam Mahdi was born even. Remember, this is a claim. First people must believe there is a God, then they can turn to God.

Moreover, for example Bahais believe in God, without seeing a Khizr or a hidden Mahdi.
If someone already believes in God, what benefit is there to ask God to show him Miracles?

 

[Link]

The question is, how do we know Imam Mahdi was born even. Remember, this is a claim. First people must believe there is a God, then they can turn to God.

Moreover, for example Bahais believe in God, without seeing a Khizr or a hidden Mahdi.
If someone already believes in God, what benefit is there to ask God to show him Miracles?

Ibrahim (a) saw the malakut, till sought more signs. And the benefit is you get to know it's Imam Mahdi (a) and not a person pretending to be him. And signs increase certainty. And then when he meets with you, he can unravel the Quran in ways you don't expect the Quran to be exalted and reach such heights.

If you believe in Quran, the Quran shows Imam Mahdi (a) is alive. I've quoted a few verses but there's a lot more, and together they contextualize each other and the maintain the meaning.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Imam Mahdi (a). So there would be no commotion and people who have not met him do not end up using his name for Dunya leadership and to create havoc.

How would knowing his name is related to not mentioning your meeting with him?
You can still disclose your experiences with him, but keep his name secret. What harm is in this?

@Link , do you really believe all these things you have been telling me? I cannot believe it dude.

 

[Link]

How would knowing his name is related to not mentioning your meeting with him?
You can still disclose your experiences with him, but keep his name secret. What harm is in this?

@Link , do you really believe all these things you have been telling me? I cannot believe it dude.

If Quran and hadiths both teach it, and you don't believe, then me testifying to any experiences I may or may not have had, won't make you believe. Instead I will face accusations in the case I testify to experiences.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The only people allowed I would say is who Imam Mahdi (a) has given permission. But it's mostly, he does not.

Why not?

 

[Link]

Why not?

Too much commotion. Those with lower faith will question all those testifying to it, and think it's a big hoax.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If Quran and hadiths both teach it, and you don't believe, then me testifying to any experiences I may or may not have had, won't make you believe. Instead I will face accusations in the case I testify to experiences.

No, the question is, how would disbelievers believe in God and Mahdi right now? Why should they believe Quran and Hadith, the way you are interpreting is true, so, they may believe?