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Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the reason that God would want to destroy a Society?
It is a punishment for what?
It depends on the circumstances (corruption, oppressions of others) and what type of Messenger sent. The Bani-Israel Messengers (a) after Musa (a) where not trials in this respect. Musa (a) however was to the people of the Pharaoh. Usually in Quran it shows part of it is to deliver believers from their oppressors. And the Mahdi (a) is said to be a Faraj for the believers.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
It depends on the circumstances (corruption, oppressions of others) and what type of Messenger sent. The Bani-Israel Messengers (a) after Musa (a) where not trials in this respect. Musa (a) however was to the people of the Pharaoh. Usually in Quran it shows part of it is to deliver believers from their oppressors. And the Mahdi (a) is said to be a Faraj for the believers.
Exactly. So, were Jewish Leaders and their society corrupted and oppressors when Jesus came to them, or they were upright?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Exactly. So, were Jewish Leaders and their society corrupted and oppressors when Jesus came to them, or they were upright?
Before Isa (a), they were unjust and during Isa (a) they were unjust. However, as far I'm aware of, believers were not in danger nor needed that type of faraj (they weren't in tribulations like Bani-Israel was during time of the Pharaoh).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran also shows the physical type punishments that came to these cities. This twisting left, right and center of the verses of Quran is not my thing. This is why I can never become Bahai.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Before Isa (a), they were unjust and during Isa (a) they were unjust. However, as far I'm aware of, believers were not in danger nor needed that type of faraj (they weren't in tribulations like Bani-Israel was during time of the Pharaoh).
You need to prove this.
If the believers were not in danger, then why they planned to Kill Jesus and all 12 apostles and prosecuted Christians?
What happend to John the Baptist?

"And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few." 4:155

According to this verse, the Jews killed Prophets.
That means both at the time of Jesus, and before Jesus they were doing wrong and were oppressor.
So, did God punish them?
I suggest to investigate history to see what happend to the Jews after Jesus came to them as well as before and during. Maybe there are signs in that.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You need to prove this.
If the believers were not in danger, then why they planned to Kill Jesus and all 12 apostles and prosecuted Christians?
What happend to John the Baptist?

"And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few." 4:155

According to this verse, the Jews killed Prophets.
That means both at the time of Jesus, and before Jesus they were doing wrong and were oppressor.
So, did God punish them?
I suggest to investigate history to see what happend to the Jews after Jesus came to them as well as before and during. Maybe there are signs in that.
Salam

Prosecution always occurred to believers. It's the type of oppression, corruption and degree of it as well the degree that believers are in peril. There is another condition as well that believers ought to have been waiting for a Faraj. Quran shows that ships of God (which are lead by Captains from him) when they go through tribulations, believers become sincere and call upon God to deliver them. Yet when they reach safety a lot of them being ungrateful and become polytheist. We see this with Bani-Israel they were sincere while waiting for Musa (a) but then began to doubt Musa (a) and question him, and then Messengers were denied or killed. So this is a cycle that happens per Quran. The type of Messenger is important, because Messengers always come in groups, but they don't all result in destruction if denied. But rather per Quran there is always prolonging of the time of destruction and then a time is eventually set.

Also, Quran shows he does not destroy a people when they are yet reforming. So if people overall are still striving to become better as a people, he won't destroy them.

Why do you believe the Quran when it talks about physical punishments it's being metaphorical? For example, when Quran talks about earthquakes or a storm/wind that God wreaked for 8 consecutive days, why do you believe these to be metaphors? How else is God supposed to warn about physical punishments?
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Salam

Prosecution always occurred to believers. It's the type of oppression, corruption and degree of it as well the degree that believers are in peril. There is another condition as well that believers ought to have been waiting for a Faraj. Quran shows that ships of God (which are lead by Captains from him) when they go through tribulations, believers become sincere and call upon God to deliver them. Yet when they reach safety a lot of them being ungrateful and become polytheist. We see this with Bani-Israel they were sincere while waiting for Musa (a) but then began to doubt Musa (a) and question him, and then Messengers were denied or killed. So this is a cycle that happens per Quran. The type of Messenger is important, because Messengers always come in groups, but they don't all result in destruction if denied. But rather per Quran there is always prolonging of the time of destruction and then a time is eventually set.

Also, Quran shows he does not destroy a people when they are yet reforming. So if people overall are still striving to become better as a people, he won't destroy them.
Salam @Link

Here are some of the related verses of Quran regarding the Jews and what happend to them:


5:20 And (remember) when Moses said to his people: “O my people! You remember the Favor of Allah upon you. When He raised prophets among you, and made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any one of the worlds.
5:21 O my people! Enter the Holy Land which Allah has destined for you ˹to qenter˺. And do not turn back or else you will become losers



[5.70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them apostles; whenever there came to them an apostle with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.



The Jews were favored first, but they were told if they turn back, they will loose all Allah had given them, meaning all glory and power they were given, would be lost, if they turn back! But later they turned back, and denied Revelations of Allah that had come to them through Jesus and killed Jesus as well as previous prophets between Moses and Jesus. According to the following verse, there is no greater wrong than this:

"Who does greater wrong than someone who fabricates a lie against God or denies His revelation? Those who do such wrong will not prosper." Quran, 6:21


So, again how did God punish them?
Let me show you how God punished them according to the Quran. He had said, if they turn back, they will loose all Allah had given them. How did Allah do it? This verse tells us:


[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!

[59.3] And had it not been that Allah had decreed for them the exile, He would certainly have punished them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have chastisement of the fire.


[61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost.


According to the Quran, God punished the Jews by causing them to be exiled from their homes. He did that by aiding their enemies agains them!


And this is established according to the recorded History as well. I mean not just by Quran, but you can verify it with History as well, the sequences of events that happend to Jews following the rejection of Jesus:


66–70AD:

The First Jewish–Roman War ended with destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem. 1,100,000 people are killed by the Romans during the siege, and 97,000 captured and enslaved.

73AD:

Final events of the First Jewish–Roman War – the fall of Masada.

115–117AD:

Kitos War (Revolt against Trajan) – a second Jewish-Roman War initiated in large Jewish communities of Cyprus, Cyrene (modern Libya), Aegipta (modern Egypt) and Mesopotamia (modern Syria and Iraq). It led to mutual killing of hundreds of thousands Jews, Greeks and Romans, ending with a total defeat of Jewish rebels and complete extermination of Jews in Cyprus and Cyrene by the newly installed Emperor Hadrian.

131–136AD:

The Roman emperor Hadrian, among other provocations, renames Jerusalem "Aelia Capitolina"......In the aftermath, most Jewish population is annihilated (about 580,000 killed) and Hadrian renames the province of Judea to Syria Palaestina, and attempts to root out Judaism.


The Jews were exiled for more than a Thousand years from their home land, the Holy Land that God had given them first.

But now, They returned to their Holy Land again as promised:



[17.104] And We said to the Children of Israel after Pharaoh, “Reside in the land, but when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We will bring you all together.”

Why the Jews started to come back following 19th century from exiles and mingled together in the Holy Land?

Becasue the Promise of Hereafter has come to pass. أخره، or Hearafter is the Judgement Day, the Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of Manifestation of the Qaim according to Quran, as interpreted by Imams. I have already showed this in my previous posts with verses and Hadithes, and no need to repeat here.

Why do you believe the Quran when it talks about physical punishments it's being metaphorical? For example, when Quran talks about earthquakes or a storm/wind that God wreaked for 8 consecutive days, why do you believe these to be metaphors? How else is God supposed to warn about physical punishments?

The punishments are two types.

Spiritual and physical.

The Spiritual punishment is, "Spiritual Death", meaning Allah puts a seal on their heands, and they do not see the truth or understand. He causes them to be "Apes", "Dogs", "Donkeys" and "Pigs", which is a spiritual degradation of the wrongdoers. As it had happend to the Jews before according to the Quran.

It is well-established according to the Quran and Hadithes, that exactly same events would happen to Ummah of Islam. I had already showed the verses and Hadithes before and no need to repeat.
But, what we see has been happening to People of Islam following 19th century, is exactly what happend to the Jews, following the Rejection of Jesus.

Meaning when Baha'u'llah came, following His time the Khilafat of Uthmani was destroyed as well as Persian empire. There has been many wars in that Region and people of Syria, Iraq, and many other Islamic countries had been destroyed, and many had to leave their countries. And it is written in Bahai Scriptures that Iran will be destroyed and People will have to leave their Homeland just as it happend to the Jews for rejecting Jesus.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We don't disagree there are different type punishments including spiritual. I'm just trying to understand how according to you can God state that he destroyed cities in a literal way with earthquakes, stones from sky, storm, etc.

With your way of Quran, you make it impossible for God to say certain things just by appeal to metaphor.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
We don't disagree there are different type punishments including spiritual. I'm just trying to understand how according to you can God state that he destroyed cities in a literal way with earthquakes, stones from sky, storm, etc.

With your way of Quran, you make it impossible for God to say certain things just by appeal to metaphor.

Yes, earthquakes, distresses and famine. But also, as in case of Children of Israel, exiling them by causing war.

For example as Bible says, when the Mahdi comes earthquakes happens:


“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.”

This earthquake occurred in Shíráz after the martyrdom of the Báb. The city was plunged into turmoil, and many people were killed. Great agitation ensued, moreover, from diseases, cholera, scarcity, famine, starvation, and other afflictions—an agitation the like of which had never before been witnessed.

“And the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”


When the earthquake took place in Fárs, the survivors were wailing and lamenting day and night, and were occupied with praising and imploring God. So great was their fear and agitation that at night they could find no rest or composure.

Abdu'l-Baha Some Answered Questions


But those punishments are usually after the Messenger has left. The Physical punishments do not happen when the Messenger is still among them:


"And ˹remember˺ when they prayed, “O Allah! If this is indeed the truth from You, then rain down stones upon us from the sky or overcome us with a painful punishment.”
But Allah would never punish them while you ˹O Prophet˺ were in their midst. Nor would He ever punish them if they prayed for forgiveness.
And what excuse have they now that God should not punish them, when they hinder men from the Sacred Mosque, and they are not its true guardians? Its true guardians are only those who are righteous, but most of them know not"

Quran 8:32-34
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Left as in died? Or left as in not in the city? For example, Prophet Lut (a) leaves the city and his daughters, then the town is destroyed.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
For example as Bible says, when the Mahdi comes earthquakes happens:


“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.”
Okay, in context, Revelation is talking about the two witnesses.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​
Then...
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.​
Which is, I assume Jerusalem? But I suppose you disagree.

Then...
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand​

In the earthquake in Shíráz, how many men died? If not 7000, then how can Baha'is claim it was this earthquake that was prophesied? Then Bill Sears claims an earthquake in Portugal as being the fulfillment of some prophecy. I hope it's not this same one that is predicted in Rev 11;13, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm used to people taking verses out of context and making them fit whatever they want.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Okay, in context, Revelation is talking about the two witnesses.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​
Then...
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.​
Which is, I assume Jerusalem? But I suppose you disagree.

Then...
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand​

In the earthquake in Shíráz, how many men died? If not 7000, then how can Baha'is claim it was this earthquake that was prophesied? Then Bill Sears claims an earthquake in Portugal as being the fulfillment of some prophecy. I hope it's not this same one that is predicted in Rev 11;13, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm used to people taking verses out of context and making them fit whatever they want.
Probably Abdulbaha is referring to this:

The Fars region of Iran was struck by a major earthquake on either 22 April[1] or 5 May 1853.[2] The city of Shiraz and the surrounding area were severely affected, with almost all buildings destroyed. At least 9,000 people were killed, with some estimates reaching 13,000.[1]

 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It could be both.

Yet Quran says in Surah Isra that if they sought to drive him out (of the land) and if they succeeded, they would have been destroyed in a bit. And elsewhere said if it were not for the Yathrib believers that God won't reveal who they are nor the Messenger (s), invited Mohammad (s) and believers as a refuge, Meccans would have been destroyed. It also says God could've destroyed them but instead sought to try the believers in battle and help the believers.. part of that elsewhere is to be a sign.

If you read Du'a Zamanal Ghayba, it can be that the prayer that disbelievers are defeated by war through believers (mostly) is because it similarly is a mercy. Same way, Meccans eventually came to Islam and were forgiven like Yusuf's (a) brothers and given a chance to be sincere.

So this is a possibility, it can be that if Imam Mahdi (a) is given a people to work with and ready to support him, the catastrophe that Mecca was spared, will be spared on a world scale. There is many hadiths about his many commanders from men and women as well. So which will occur, we don't know.

There is even a possibility (slight) that Imam Mahdi (a) rises up with no fighting, no weapons, because the world comes to him. This highly unlikely, but the scenario is also there, as that is the purpose of warnings to be avoided. For example, if Imam Mahdi (a) rises, does miracles, and warns people about it, they may heed his warnings. It's not impossible. This is being the best scenario is the one we should also try to prepare humanity for.

Then a lesser evil is fighting.

Then the worse that can come about, is every city destroyed or punished severely, and few believers from each, and this will be God's doing it through his power. Which one will happen. I don't know.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't know how long they lived each. Suleiman (a) is supposed to have lived extra long life. Elyas (a) still alive and so is Isa (a).
@Link ,

I found names of Prophets of Isreal. As you see, there are gaps between them. For example between Ezra and John, there are about 400 years gap, when there is no Prophet between them.
beside this, the 12 apostles of Jesus all died in the 1st century, and Muhammad came 500-600 years after them. So, there is a gap of more then 500 years where there is no Prophet or Imam between them.



Moses 1600 BC

1. Aaron 1600 BC

2. Joseph 1590 BC

3. Joshua 13th century BCE

4. Solomon 970–931 BCE

5. Elijah 900 BC - 848 BC

6. Johanna 900-800 BC

7. David 885 BCE

8. Isaiah 800 - 700 BC

9. Jeremiah  650 –  570 BC

10. Zachariah 520BC

11. Ezra 480–440 BCE
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.
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12. John 1BC - 30 AD

Jesus 5BC
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Link ,

I found names of Prophets of Isreal. As you see, there are gaps between them. For example between Ezra and John, there are about 400 years gap, when there is no Prophet between them.
beside this, the 12 apostles of Jesus all died in the 1st century, and Muhammad came 500-600 years after them. So, there is a gap of more then 500 years where there is no Prophet or Imam between them.



Moses 1600 BC

1. Aaron 1600 BC

2. Joseph 1590 BC

3. Joshua 13th century BCE

4. Solomon 970–931 BCE

5. Elijah 900 BC - 848 BC

6. Johanna 900-800 BC

7. David 885 BCE

8. Isaiah 800 - 700 BC

9. Jeremiah  650 –  570 BC

10. Zachariah 520BC

11. Ezra 480–440 BCE
.
.
.
.
.
.
12. John 1BC - 30 AD

Jesus 5BC

This is according to which sources? If you can quote hadiths, I'm all ears.

There is somethings distortions took places. Haroun (a) and his family (a) were promised the high leadership. Then God turned 180 against the covenant to them because apparently, they participated in Shirk.

So of course, Shayateen don't want people to accept the concept of an Ahlulbayt in bani-Israel. Quran came to clarify that they too had an Ahlulbayt.

The number twelve is also than clarified.

Also your has Solomon (a) before David (a), how is that possible?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
This is according to which sources? If you can quote hadiths, I'm all ears.

There is somethings distortions took places. Haroun (a) and his family (a) were promised the high leadership. Then God turned 180 against the covenant to them because apparently, they participated in Shirk.

So of course, Shayateen don't want people to accept the concept of an Ahlulbayt in bani-Israel. Quran came to clarify that they too had an Ahlulbayt.

The number twelve is also than clarified.

Also your has Solomon (a) before David (a), how is that possible?
I used this: انبیای بنی اسرائیل - ویکی فقه


Then i went to wiki to find their dates.

Maybe something is wrong with the list or info, but if you have time, help me to correct it.
 
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