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Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.
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The hadith you quoted is irrelevant. You ignore hundreds of verses about physical punishments in this world about destroyed cities which give the proper context to the verses I quoted. And then say, I didn't interpret myself.
What a joke.
The ulama leading others astray is no an excuse for you to twist God words left right and center and be playfully and not fearful about it. It's really the case you should not command people to be seeking truth when you don't put any effort yourself to that. Rather, you are obtuse.
If he is going to punish a people - he will send a Messenger before doing that. It means the opposite of what you derived from that. It means God sends Messengers to prevent his punishment. For example, he sent Nuh, and said to warn his people before the punishment comes to them. Nuh (a) was sent to prevent the punishment.
Many cities were destroyed, but God never destroyed them before sending a Messenger.
Yes it was.
As to who is guided, only Allah can give guidance, to whom Allah so chooses. The Quran is good guidance on this topic.
Our issue is submission unto what is from Allah and not motivation that comes from our own selves
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
In reality God does not change anything of what He had said before.
The reason Bada happens, is because God speaks the future events in Mutishabihat language. Most of Ulama have not been able to understand Mutishabihat, as He said, none knows its interpretation except God and the Ahlulbayt, thus the Ulama interpreted them incorrectly. Their incorrect interpretations has caused false expectations about future events.
But the Prophet or Imams sometimes spoke in clear language (محكمات).
We need to realize when they spoke Clear, and use that to understand the Mutishabihat.
For example, here the Prophet speaks clearly;
قالَ رَسولُ اللّه ِ صلى الله عليه و آله : اُبَشِّرُكُم بِالمَهدِيِّ؟ يُبعَثُ في اُمَّتي عَلَى اختِلافٍ مِنَ النّاسِ وزَلازِلَ ، فَيَملَأُ الأَرضَ قِسطا وعَدلاً كَما مُلِئَت جَورا وظُلما ؛ يَرضى عَنهُ ساكِنُ السَّماءِ وساكِنُ الأَرضِ ؛ يَقسِمُ المالَ صَحاحا . فَقالَ لَهُ رَجُلٌ : ما صَحاحا؟ قالَ : بِالسَّوِيَّةِ بَينَ النّاسِ . قالَ : ويَملَأُ اللّه ُ قُلوبَ اُمَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ صلى الله عليه و آله غِنىً ، ويَسَعُهُم عَدلُهُ
The Prophet says, the Qaim fills the Hearts with justice, meaning "the earth" is a symbol of "heart".
Just as we see, for example God says, 'Stars', but He means 'Imams', or when He says "the Sun" He means "the Prophet", or by "the Moon", He means Ali:
قيل : يا رسول الله ما الشمس والقمر والزهرة والفرقدان؟ قال : أنا الشمس ، وعلي القمر ، وفاطمة الزهرة ، والحسن والحسين الفرقدان ، وكتاب الله لا يفترقان حتى يرداعلي الحوض
Likewise when Allah said the earth Shall be changed to another earth, Baha'u'llah explained in Iqan:
"Consider now, were the parched and barren soil of these hearts to remain unchanged, how could they ever become the recipients of the revelation of the mysteries of God, and the revealers of the divine Essence? Thus hath He said: “On the day when the earth shall be changed into another earth.” ......And now, comprehend the meaning of this verse: “The whole earth shall on the Resurrection Day be but His handful, and in His right hand shall the heavens be folded together. Praise be to Him! and high be He uplifted above the partners they join with him!”
And now, be fair in thy judgment. Were this verse to have the meaning which men suppose it to have, of what profit, one may ask, could it be to man? Moreover, it is evident and manifest that no such hand as could be seen by human eye could accomplish such deeds, or could possibly be ascribed to the exalted Essence of the one true God. Nay, to acknowledge such a thing is naught but sheer blasphemy, an utter perversion of the truth. And should it be supposed that by this verse are meant the Manifestations of God, Who will be called upon, on the Day of Judgment, to perform such deeds, this too seemeth far from the truth, and is surely of no profit.
On the contrary, by the term “earth” is meant the earth of understanding and knowledge."
essentially the mission of the Qaim, is purely Spiritual.
In the time of [Hazrat Mahdi (as)] no one will be woken up from their sleep OR HAVE A BLEEDING NOSE. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, p. 44)
Those swearing allegiance to him [Hazrat Mahdi (as)] will swear allegiance between Rock and Pillar (around Ka’bah). They never wake a sleeping person, NEVER SHED BLOOD. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, p. 24)
Al-Baqir:
"When the Qa'im from the family of Muhammad may God bless Him and His family arises He will set up encampments and He will teach the people the Qur'an as it was revealed by God the Mighty and High. The greatest difficulty will be for those who have learnt it as it is today because it differs from its (original) composition."
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is true too.
Baha'u'llah warned a punishment comes, which is a world war. He came to bring peace. But when most people rejected Him, it is going to happen.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
The mission of Mahdi was to change the Heart. Meaning to bring teachings that will fill the Heart with justice, with good human qualities. To create a new human.
It is mind of humans that invented a Mahdi who is a worldly Ruler with Army who goes and kill everyone who is not a believer. All these false explanations are due to following Mutishabihat in Hadith and Quran, instead of going after Muhkamaat.
Also, this is fulfilled. As Baha'u'llah is return of Christ. He initially was a follower of the Bab. (Isa prayed behind Mahdi). Then once the Bab was Martyred, Baha'u'llah's mission started.
Abu Basir that he said:
I heard Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) say:
“In the Master of the Affair there is a tradition from Musa, a tradition from Isa, a tradition from Yusuf and a tradition from Muhammad (a.s.). As for the tradition from Musa, he is fearful, vigilant; as for the tradition from Isa, it is that the same that was said about Isa will be said about him; as for the tradition from Yusuf, it is the prison and the Taqayyah; as for the tradition from Muhammad (a.s.), it is his rise in his grandfather’s style and illustration of his sayings....."
According to this Hadithe, the same that was said about Jesus will be said about the Qaim. This is an allusion to this verse:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh....." Quran 4:157
The following Hadith is another confirmation that He was to be Martyred:
مَا مِنَّا إِلَّا مَقْتولٌ شَهِیدٌ
There is no one among us (Ahlulbayt) who would not be Martyred.
I mean, when the Qaim is prisoned and Martyred, how would anyone imagine He is a worldly Ruler with Army who magically makes everyone Muslim? All of this is due to Ulama who were following Mutishabihat and getting mislead.
You are explaining exactly what happen with the Message of the Baband Baha'u'llah.
Also explain how the Message given by Muhammad prevented any punishments? Those who embraced Muhammad did not suffer punishment, they embraced the the bounties given of God.
Same for Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony
Mecca was under threat of destruction per Quran. How and why that was avoided is also explained in Quran.
You should read the Quran.
This is kettle pot thing dude. You are explaining everything from a none proven way and not firm way. It's conjecture with no proof on your part.
Not really Tony. The Quran explains the term/time of punishment promised was always during time of a Messenger and there was specific promise for that time. And they were not wars and what not, the Quran also says not to make prosecution of people into God's punishment. Remember Imam Zainal Abideen (a) words when he was told God killed his father, he said people killed his father.
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَقُولُ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ فَإِذَا أُوذِيَ فِي اللَّهِ جَعَلَ فِتْنَةَ النَّاسِ كَعَذَابِ اللَّهِ وَلَئِنْ جَاءَ نَصْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّكَ لَيَقُولُنَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا مَعَكُمْ ۚ أَوَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ بِأَعْلَمَ بِمَا فِي صُدُورِ الْعَالَمِينَ | Among the people there are those who say, ‘We have faith in Allah,’ but if such a one is tormented in Allah’s cause, he takes persecution by the people for Allah’s punishment. Yet if there comes any help from your Lord, they will say, ‘We were indeed with you.’ Does not Allah know best what is in the breasts of the creatures? | Al-Ankaboot : 10
Enthusiasm for attractive manners, respectable position, and taking lessons from the past
In case you cannot avoid vanity, your vanity should be for good qualities, praiseworthy acts, and admirable matters with which the dignified and noble chiefs of the Arab families distinguished themselves, as attractive manners, high thinking, respectable position and good performances. You too should show vanity in praiseworthy habits like the protection of the neighbour, the fulfilment of agreements, obedience to the virtuous, opposition to the haughty, extending generosity to others, abstention from rebellion, keeping aloof from blood-shed, doing justice to people, suppressing anger and avoiding trouble on the earth. You should also fear what calamities befell peoples before you on account of their evil deeds and detestable actions. Remember, during good or bad circumstances, what happened to them, and be cautious that you do not become like them.After you have thought over both the conditions of these people, attach yourself to everything with which their position became honourable, on account of which enemies remained away from them through which safety spread over them, by reason of which riches bowed before them and as a result of which distinction connected itself with their rope. These things were abstention from division, sticking to unity, calling each other to it and advising each other about it. You avoid everything which broke their backbone and weakened their power, such as malice in the heart, hatred in the chest, turning away (from each other's help) and withholding the hand from one another's assistance.
Think about the condition of people from among the believers who passed before you. What distresses and trials they were in! Were they not the most over-burdened among all the people and in the most straitened circumstances in the whole world? The Pharaohs took them as slaves. They inflicted on them the worst punishments and bitter sufferings. They continuously remained in this state of ruinous disgrace and severe subjugation. They found no method for escape and no way for protection. Till when Allah, the Glorified, noticed that they were enduring troubles in His love and bearing distresses out of fear for Him, He provided escape from the distress of trials. So, He changed their disgrace into honour and fear into safety. Consequently, they became ruling kings and conspicuous leaders and Allah's favours over them reached limits to which their own wishes had not reached.
Look, how they were when their groups were united, their views were unanimous, their hearts were moderate, their hands used to help one another, their swords were intended for assisting one another, their eyes were sharp and their aims were the same. Did they not become masters of the corners of the earth and rulers over the neck of all the worlds? Thereafter, also see what happened to them towards the end when division overtook them, unity became fractured, and differences arose between their words and their hearts. They divided into various groups and were scattered fighting among themselves. Then Allah took away from them the apparel of His honour and deprived them of the prosperity produced by His favours. Only their stories have remained among you for the guidance of those who may learn the lesson from them.
Learning lessons from the past nations
You should take a lesson from the fate of the progeny of Ismael, the children of Isaac and the children of Israel. How similar are their affairs and how akin are their examples. In connection with the details of their division and disunity, think of the days when Kisras of Persia and the Caesars of Rome had become their masters. 4 They turned them out from the pastures of their lands, the rivers of Iraq and the fertility of the world, towards thorny forests, the passages of (hot) winds and hardships in livelihood. In this way they turned them into just herders of camels. Their houses were the worst in the world and their places of stay were the most drought-stricken. There was not one voice towards which they could turn for protection, nor any shade of affection on whose strength they could repose trust.
Their condition was full of distress. Their hands were scattered. Their majority was divided. They were in great anguish and under layers of ignorance. They buried their daughters alive, worshipped idols, disregarded kinship and practised robbery.
From: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-bal...be-allah-who-wears-apparel-honour-and-dignity
Humanity as a whole is under threat of destruction in this age, how that will be avoided is given in the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah offered this from Allah.
"The time for the destruction of the world and its people hath arrived"
You will find the same theme repeated in all the Holy Books. Every Word given by Allah supports the Message given before and prepares us for what is to come.
I would humbly offer, you could read what was offered in the Baha'i Writings as to how that destruction can be avoided and humanity saved from its own self.
We are in an age where we can participate in the salvation of humanity, or be part of the destruction.
Regards Tony
See the last reply, it answers this as well.
All the best Link, we all need Allah now.
Regards Tony
You know what there is more verses pertaining to the warning of the Mahdi (a) as far physical destructions, then there are verses about day of judgment.
I've made a thread in non-debate section. I will post a bunch of verses in this respect. I will also do similar threads to contextualizing and proving what the day of judgment is. And also verses to contextualize there is always Twelve successors to a founder.
@TransmutingSoul This is the thread: A collection of verses: warnings about the Mahdi (a) as far destruction is concerned.
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