Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[danieldemol]

God is not bounded to any rules.

A God which is not bound to any rules is indistinguishable from a malevolent entity as I see it since all promise of eternal life/heaven/paradise could just be a lie to trick you into compliance if God is not bounded by any rules.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

God would not lie though, it's beneath his dignity.

I dont see it as lie.
Changes are not lies.
It is like changing the Qiblah (قبله).

Why did God change the Qiblah in Islam?
Do you know the reason this verse was revealed?

"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation (Ummah), that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind"

Two points from the verse:

1. Muslims are not the final ummah. They are a middle ummah, meaning there was Ummah of Jesus before them, and there will be another Umman after them, and the Muslims are in the middle.

2. God changed the Qiblah from Jerusalem to Kabih, Only as a test, to separate those who obey, and those who do not obey, otherwise He could have left the Qiblih the same as before. Non of the Prophets, such as Jesus, Moses had changed the Qiblah before.
The alteration in future events is the same. He says somethings, and then He may make something different appear, in a way that is against the desires of people. This is a test. For example the Jews expected a different Messiah than Jesus. They did not expect their Messih comes with a new Book, New Laws, a New Faith. They expected a Messiah that promotes Jewish Faith, and conquers the world, and makes the Jews, above everyone else. And if you read Torah, you see why they expected these things. But when Jesus came, none of these things happend as they expected, and even they crucified Jesus. To them, this was a proof, Jesus could not be their Messaih.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A God which is not bound to any rules is indistinguishable from a malevolent entity as I see it since all promise of eternal life/heaven/paradise could just be a lie to trick you into compliance if God is not bounded by any rules.

The relativeness of Manifestation of God to People, is like a Sheppard and His flock.
The flock follows the rules. The Sheppard does not follow those rules.

Again, like a Gardner and the garden. The garden needs water, good soil, sun, and other things to grow. The garden is completely a different level of being. The Gardner is not bounded by those same rules required by garden.
And this is just comparing Manifestation of God with humanity.
How much more, God Himself is different than mortal human beings

 

[Link]

I dont see it as lie.
Changes are not lies.
It is like changing the Qiblah (قبله).

Why did God change the Qiblah in Islam?
Do you know the reason this verse was revealed?

"Thus We have appointed you a middle nation (Ummah), that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind"

Two points from the verse:

1. Muslims are not the final ummah. They are a middle ummah, meaning there was Ummah of Jesus before them, and there will be another Umman after them, and the Muslims are in the middle.

2. God changed the Qiblah from Jerusalem to Kabih, Only as a test, to separate those who obey, and those who do not obey, otherwise He could have left the Qiblih the same as before. Non of the Prophets, such as Jesus, Moses had changed the Qiblah before.
The alteration in future events is the same. He says somethings, and then He may make something different appear, in a way that is against the desires of people. This is a test. For example the Jews expected a different Messiah than Jesus. They did not expect their Messih comes with a new Book, New Laws, a New Faith. They expected a Messiah that promotes Jewish Faith, and conquers the world, and makes the Jews, above everyone else. And if you read Torah, you see why they expected these things. But when Jesus came, none of these things happend as they expected, and even they crucified Jesus. To them, this was a proof, Jesus could not be their Messaih.

There is a difference if he promised something and does not fulfill it.

 

[Link]

And changes are lies if it's breaking a promise.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is a difference if he promised something and does not fulfill it.

Yes, but He didn't promise everything. He only promised the Qaim comes. But what Qaim does, who He is, or what happens after Him, is not a promise. It was upto Him how He wanted to be. He possesses Bada, exactly for this reason.


It is narrated from Ibne Walid from Saffar from Ahmad bin Husain from Uthman bin Isa from Khalid bin Najih from Zurarah bin Ayyan that he said: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“There is an occultation for the Qaim before his reappearance.” I asked:
“Why is it so?” He replied: “He is fearful.” And he pointed towards his belly,
implying that the Qaim fears for his life. Then he said: “O Zurarah; and he is
that awaited one and he is the one in whose birth they shall doubt. Thus some
will say: His father died heirless and some will say: He was in the womb of
his mother when his father died. Some others will allege that he was born two
years before the passing away of his father. And he is the Awaited one; but
the Almighty Allah likes to test the Shia. It is the time when people of falsehood will fall in doubts.”


It is recorded in Bihar alanwar, vol 52-3:

Have you not considered those who went forth from their homes, for fear of death, and they were thousands, then Allah said to them, Die; again He gave them life…” (Surah Baqarah 2:243)


These were the verses in support of Rajat. Now the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) says: On Judgment Day the arrogant will be raised in the form of a tiny ant.

Also the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said that all that happened in Bani Israel,
will also happen in my Ummah; like the splitting of the earth, transmogrification of the people and the dropping of stones etc.
Huzaifah says that it is not unlikely that the Almighty Allah should raise
most people of this Ummah in the form of monkeys and pigs. So the Rajat
that I believe, is also proved from Quran and traditions of the Prophet and I
am certain that the Almighty Allah will send Sawwar to the earth in form of
dog, pig and ant, because he is unjust, arrogant and infidel.



Through his chains of narrators, it is narrated from Abu Khalid Qummat from Humran bin Ayyan that:
“Once I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) if there is something in Bani Israel, which will not happen in this Ummah?
He replied: No.
I asked: Then what do you say about the following words of the Almighty Allah?

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ خَرَجُواْ مِن دِيَارِهِمْ وَهُمْ أُلُوفٌ حَذَرَ الْمَوْتِ فَقَالَ لَهُمُ اللّهُ مُوتُواْ ثُمَّ
أَحْيَاهُم

Have you not considered those who went forth from their homes, for fear of death, and they were thousands, then Allah said to them: Die; again He gave them life…” (Surah Baqarah 2:243)

Did they die on that day or they had returned to the world?
No, they had returned to the world, lived in their houses, lived a normal life as long as Allah willed and then died when their death arrived.”

 

[Link]

Yes, but He didn't promise everything. He only promised the Qaim comes. But what Qaim does, who He is, or what happens after Him, is not a promis

We disagree on that. I showed in Quran, he promises all cities will be tried with him (which didn't him happen with Baha'allah) to the extent they may be all destroyed and other things are in hadiths as in justice will prevail and the truth will prevail due to his rise.

Bada to me is simple, it's God deciding in real time due reactions from free-will which are not set in stone.

Now there are conditional promises in Quran. It means in this scenario this will happen, in that scenario that will happen. There are many scenarios. But if the conditions are met, the promises will come about.

I don't see them fulfilled yet. Also the main role of Imam Mahdi (a) in hadiths is to rise and establish justice by leading people in real time to it. This didn't happen in your religion.

Also, Isa (a) is supposed to pray behind Imam Mahdi (a) and every people of the book will accept Isa (a) before Isa's (a) death per Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We disagree on that. I showed in Quran, he promises all cities will be tried with him (which didn't him happen with Baha'allah) to the extent they may be all destroyed and other things are in hadiths as in justice will prevail and the truth will prevail due to his rise.

Bada to me is simple, it's God deciding in real time due reactions from free-will which are not set in stone.

Now there are conditional promises in Quran. It means in this scenario this will happen, in that scenario that will happen. There are many scenarios. But if the conditions are met, the promises will come about.

I don't see them fulfilled yet. Also the main role of Imam Mahdi (a) in hadiths is to rise and establish justice by leading people in real time to it. This didn't happen in your religion.

Also, Isa (a) is supposed to pray behind Imam Mahdi (a) and every people of the book will accept Isa (a) before Isa's (a) death per Quran.

I dont see where you showed this with a verse of Quran.
Can you give me the post number where you did this?

 

[Link]

I dont see where you showed this with a verse of Quran.
Can you give me the post number where you did this?

Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

Salam The hadith says "the country/government of Iblis", did not say the night is Iblis. But I get what your saying. To me, it's more proof that Baha'allah is not it, because we are still in dark night. There is still monarchies, unjust governments, truth is not prevalent. It can be even said...

www.religiousforums.com

There are many more verses. You can say this is one of the modes in Quran. Warning about the Mahdi (a) potential destruction result but on a universal world scale.

For example, the Haaqah in Surah Haaqah is about this.

All past punishments in this regard were local, while the punishment warned about with the Mahdi (a) is on a world scale. This is the main reason why Imam Mahdi (a) is still in Ghayba.

 

[danieldemol]

The relativeness of Manifestation of God to People, is like a Sheppard and His flock.
The flock follows the rules. The Sheppard does not follow those rules.

In my view the shepherd simply has different rules. The rules it has to follow are to protect the flock. But you are asserting that God doesn't have any rules. So failed analogy I guess.

Again, like a Gardner and the garden. The garden needs water, good soil, sun, and other things to grow. The garden is completely a different level of being. The Gardner is not bounded by those same rules required by garden.

If the Gardner wants to have a living garden it is still bound by rules though such as the need to water the garden when there is no rain, the need to weed etc. But you are asserting God has no rules in my view.

And this is just comparing Manifestation of God with humanity.
How much more, God Himself is different than mortal human beings

Being different doesn't make God unbound by rules of fair play unless it is an unfair God you are referring to - in which case it is a tyrant in my view

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam


مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًا | Whoever is guided is guided only for [the good of] his own soul, and whoever goes astray, goes astray only to its detriment. No bearer shall bear another’s burden. We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle. | Al-Israa : 15


وَإِذَا أَرَدْنَا أَنْ نُهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُوا فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا الْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَاهَا تَدْمِيرًا | And when We desire to destroy a town We command its affluent ones [to obey Allah]. But they commit transgression in it, and so the word becomes due against it, and We destroy it utterly. | Al-Israa : 16

These verses are saying, whenever God sends messengers, if People Reject, He will punish them.

If you look at history of Persia, you can see what happend to Amir Kabir, Nasiruddin shah, and those who killed the Bab, imprisoned and exiled Baha'u'llah.
The other punishment for the people of Persia and surrounding has been happening, in the form of all these wars and sufferings in that Region.
the Rest of the world is given more time, because they were not directly involved in prosecution of the new Faith, but there will be a severe punishment for the whole world as Baha'u'llah wrote.

وَإِنْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا نَحْنُ مُهْلِكُوهَا قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُوهَا عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۚ كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا | There is not a town but We will destroy it before the Day of Resurrection/rising, or punish it with a severe punishment. That has been written in the Book. | Al-Israa : 58

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا | Nothing kept Us from sending signs except that the first ones (generations) denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as warning. | Al-Israa : 59

There many more allusions to the Mahdi (a) in the Quran.

عنه عن ابن سنان عن أبي عبد اللّه (عليه السلام) في قول اللّه‌ «وَ إِنْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا نَحْنُ مُهْلِكُوها قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيامَةِ» قال هو الفناء بالموت أو غيره.

These verses are about what was to happen before Day of Resurrection, which means before the Rise of Qaim.
It means, all people will die spiritually.

Once all die spiritually, Qaim comes and Revives them spiritually:

اعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُحْيِي الْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا قَدْ بَيَّنَّا لَكُمُ الْآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah Hadid 57:17)

Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “Allah, the Exalted will revive it through the Qaim after its death; its death implies disbelief of its inhabitants, because the disbelievers are dead.”

And you can know what the Prophet said about His ummah:

في منزل أبي أيوب الانصاري فقال معاذ : يا رسول الله أرأيت قول الله تعالى : « يوم ينفخ في الصور فتأتون أفواجا » الآيات؟ فقال : يا معاذ سألت عن عظيم من الامر ثم أرسل عينيه ثم قال : تحشر عشرة أصناف من امتى أشتاتا قد ميزهم الله تعالى من المسلمين وبدل صورهم ، فبعضهم على صورة القردة ، و بعضهم على صورة الخنازير ، وبعضهم منكسون أرجلهم من فوق ووجوههم من تحت ثم يسحبون عليها

قلت اخبرني يا رسول الله عن قوله " فتأتون أفواجا " قال إنك أول من سألني عنها إذا كان يوم القيامة تجظأ أمتي عشرة أجزاء يحشرون على عشرة افواج صنف على صورة القردة وصنف على صورة الخنازير وصنف على صورة الكلاب وصنف على صورة الحمير .....[1]وصنف على صورة الذر وصنف على صورة البهائم

The Prophet said, when Day of Resurrection comes, meaning when the Qaim rises to revive the disbelievers, ummah will be resurrected in several shapes, some as monkeys, some as donkeys, some as pigs, and some as dogs....etc.
Which is an allusion to their disbelief and apostasy (rejecting the Qaim, just as Jews rejected Messiah)

 

[Link]

I knew you would interpret that way. But that's decontextualizing it from the Quran. The Quran talks about physical destructions of many cities. The verses are clear. The problem is you decontextualize verses from Quran which is what Quran predicts about those who follow unclear as opposed to clear.

There is entire theme in Quran about physical destruction of cities and people. You can do whatever you want dude. It's your fate.

Either one of us make it to paradise, both of us, or none of us. I tried to help you but I can't. You play too much with Quran and it's your downfall.

 

[Link]

These verses are saying, whenever God sends messengers, if People Reject, He will punish them.

You got to work on logic a bit. You always assess wrongly. The verse says God does not punish unless he sends a Messenger. That means, if God is going to punish, he will send a Messenger before he does that. You always make your own statements and the accuracy of the Quran and precision is all lost in your posts. It's never correct. You truly are lost in your own making of unclear meanings.

I would take a logic course, and begin to assess A-> B sort of logic. And be able to assess sentences properly.

 

[Link]

With sophistry it's literally impossible for God to say certain things. You've made impossible for the Quran to explain itself.

One of us will have the pleasure of "I told you so" one day.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I knew you would interpret that way. But that's decontextualizing it from the Quran. The Quran talks about physical destructions of many cities. The verses are clear. The problem is you decontextualize verses from Quran which is what Quran predicts about those who follow unclear as opposed to clear.

There is entire theme in Quran about physical destruction of cities and people. You can do whatever you want dude. It's your fate.

Either one of us make it to paradise, both of us, or none of us. I tried to help you but I can't. You play too much with Quran and it's your downfall.

I quoted Hadith. I didn't interpret myself.
Didnt the Imam say, the Qaim will revive the earth after its death? Did not the Imam say, "dead" denotes "disbelievers"?

I hope everyone enters paradise. But I see the Baha'i Faith completely in line with the sayings of the Imams and the Quran, whereas, the ideas of Ulama, has nothing to do with Quran and Imams. Unfortunately, because Ulama have been the leaders of Muslims for many centuries, their wrong ideas are well established in the Muslims community. So, it is very hard for them to see it otherwise.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You got to work on logic a bit. You always assess wrongly. The verse says God does not punish unless he sends a Messenger. That means, if God is going to punish, he will send a Messenger before he does that. You always make your own statements and the accuracy of the Quran and precision is all lost in your posts. It's never correct. You truly are lost in your own making of unclear meanings.

I would take a logic course, and begin to assess A-> B sort of logic. And be able to assess sentences properly.

How would that make sense to you?
Is God's purpose for sending messengers to punish humanity?
The purpose of God for sending messengers is to guide humanity.
The punishment comes if they reject.
The purpose of punishment is not to just make them suffer, but to awaken them, to change their heart. Because difficulties and suffering can soften their heart, so, hopefully they can see the truth. It is not like God is angry or something, because people do not believe. God is independent of what people believe. But, the punishment is part of His plans to change humamity to a better humanity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You got to work on logic a bit. You always assess wrongly. The verse says God does not punish unless he sends a Messenger. That means, if God is going to punish, he will send a Messenger before he does that. You always make your own statements and the accuracy of the Quran and precision is all lost in your posts. It's never correct. You truly are lost in your own making of unclear meanings.

God sends the Messengers with the teachings and laws we are required to Submit to. Our rejection of those teachings and laws become our own self inflicted punishment.

God sent us the salvation we needed, at the time we needed it the most, and delivered it to the people that needed it most.

That is why it was delivered to the heart of Islam, as Islam needed it the most.

That is why the Message was also delivered throught America, as America also needed it the most.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You got to work on logic a bit. You always assess wrongly. The verse says God does not punish unless he sends a Messenger. That means, if God is going to punish, he will send a Messenger before he does that. You always make your own statements and the accuracy of the Quran and precision is all lost in your posts. It's never correct. You truly are lost in your own making of unclear meanings.

I would take a logic course, and begin to assess A-> B sort of logic. And be able to assess sentences properly.

God sends the Messengers with the teachings and laws we are required to Submit to. Our rejection of those teachings and laws become our own self inflicted punishment.

God sent us the salvation we needed, at the time we needed it the most, and delivered it to the people that needed it most.

That is why it was delivered to the heart of Islam, as Islam needed it the most.

That is why the Message was also delivered throught America, as America also needed it the most.

Regards Tony

Another thing to consider as to how we inflict punishment on our own selves is to consider this passage from Shoghi Effendi.

"Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty years, have, "at every moment tormented with a fresh torment" Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald--Himself a Manifestation of God--to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of martyrdom."

(28 March 1941, written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bahá'ís of the World, published in The Promised Day Is Come (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1980), pp. 99-100) [3]

Islam as a whole will face great tests both spiritual, materially, self inflicted and from natural disasters.

Because humanity is in reality of the same Spirit, these convulsions will effect the whole body of humanity, none of us are exempt.

It is not about "I told you so", far from it in fact, it is simply a cry from our hearts to take the elixir for the sake of all humanity, not just for one member of that body.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

You guys are going to have to overcome your want to feel specially guided for the truth. The truth is not with you. I've proven it from many angles.

It's good to not trust majority, but it's also good not to become cultish in interpretations and to be grounded in language.

 

[Link]

God sends the Messengers with the teachings and laws we are required to Submit to. Our rejection of those teachings and laws become our own self inflicted punishment.

God sent us the salvation we needed, at the time we needed it the most, and delivered it to the people that needed it most.

That is why it was delivered to the heart of Islam, as Islam needed it the most.

That is why the Message was also delivered throught America, as America also needed it the most.

Regards Tony

Tony, how else is God supposed to warn of the physical type destructions?

You guys make it impossible for God to say certain things, because, you twist words way of their place.

This is what Quran warns about that hard hearts remove verses far from their place.