Validity of Muhammad's message.

[Don Penguinoini]

Vandervalley, you are putting the odd 1000 people into the same kind as a billion.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

What I meant was that only the Arabic connoisseurs could decide whether Quran's literature has been surpassed. But we, folks on RF, using the medium of English here, would only be able to compare works of English literature and have no choice but to go by a translation of the Quran into English. It’s at best one of the many great works of literature. Hardly a befitting position for a work of God.

Are you trying to say that the Quran is untranslatable? Then maybe it was a work meant only for the Arabs?

I am not saying that it cannot be translated but rather, that Quran is pretty difficult to translate. Secondly, translations have been made by man not GOD, so are not perfect and therefore should not be compared.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

After I read the posts I can only conclude that Koran is easily manipulated by those who want to use violence against others.

A violent person can easily use koranic verses to justify his violent deeds.

For example sucide bombers and terrorists in gerneral.

A book that can be easily manipulated and used by violent people to justify violent acts is a danger to the society and needs to be changed.

\
Can u plz present few such verses.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I am not saying that it cannot be translated but rather, that Quran is pretty difficult to translate. Secondly, translations have been made by man not GOD, so are not perfect and therefore should not be compared.

The belief of Muslims that the Quran is from Allah ought not to be questioned, because it is a matter of faith. All who know the intensity of Muslims' fidelity to this belief cannot but be impressed. However, it is not as if Mohammad one fine morning discovered a book and understood the book to be from God because the book claimed so, or God called on Mohammad and handed over the book to him. It began when Mohammad started meditating in Mount Herat. Over the next 27 years, his insights were presented to his companions, who transcribed it and the scattered pages were collated into a book called Quran only after Mohammad passed away. How do we reconcile these facts with belief?

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

The belief of Muslims that the Quran is from Allah ought not to be questioned, because it is a matter of faith. All who know the intensity of Muslims' fidelity to this belief cannot but be impressed. However, it is not as if Mohammad one fine morning discovered a book and understood the book to be from God because the book claimed so, or God called on Mohammad and handed over the book to him. It began when Mohammad started meditating in Mount Herat. Over the next 27 years, his insights were presented to his companions, who transcribed it and the scattered pages were collated into a book called Quran only after Mohammad passed away. How do we reconcile these facts with belief?

I am sorry but I am unable to understand your question. Are you asking that how was Quran compiled in it's earlier stages? What facts are to be reconciled with what beliefs?

 

[K.Venugopal]

I am sorry but I am unable to understand your question. Are you asking that how was Quran compiled in it's earlier stages? What facts are to be reconciled with what beliefs?

Islam is based on the believe that Quran is Allah's word. But between Allah and the Quran, the message passed through Gabrial to Mohammad who in turn dictated Allah's (Gabrial's?) word to his many companions over a period of 27 years and then it (the companions' words?) came out in a book form compiled by Caliph Uthman, who was not sure as to the sequence of compilation as Mohammad had by then passed away. Why such a circuitous route for the word of God?

 

[England my lionheart]

I am not saying that it cannot be translated but rather, that Quran is pretty difficult to translate. Secondly, translations have been made by man not GOD, so are not perfect and therefore should not be compared.

OK so this is the point God did'nt write it so it is imperfect and therefore why has it been used surely if it were the work of God it could only be perfect.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

OK so this is the point God did'nt write it so it is imperfect and therefore why has it been used surely if it were the work of God it could only be perfect.

For translation is the only alternative to learning Arabic. Secondly, translations do deliver the message of Quran and are comprehensible. They can and should be used for understanding message of Quran. However, when you are talking about literary comparison then how can we use work of man (made to understand quran) to compare with other literary works? It means we are giving word of God same status as translation by man. We have to use Arabic text (the original one).
If a man is to understand message of Quran, he can use only the translation. But, to realize the true literary magnificence of Quran, one must learn Arabic.

 

[England my lionheart]

For translation is the only alternative to learning Arabic. Secondly, translations do deliver the message of Quran and are comprehensible. They can and should be used for understanding message of Quran. However, when you are talking about literary comparison then how can we use work of man (made to understand quran) to compare with other literary works? It means we are giving word of God same status as translation by man. We have to use Arabic text (the original one).
If a man is to understand message of Quran, he can use only the translation. But, to realize the true literary magnificence of Quran, one must learn Arabic.

But the the extremists do speak Arabic yet they do interpret the qur'an a different way to other muslims,for example if we take the case of homosexuals in all the abrahamic religions ,to some it is interpreted that it is a sin and others say it is not and although all are reading the same book they all see a different story.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

But the the extremists do speak Arabic yet they do interpret the qur'an a different way to other muslims,for example if we take the case of homosexuals in all the abrahamic religions ,to some it is interpreted that it is a sin and others say it is not and although all are reading the same book they all see a different story.

Extremists use quotes out of context. For example in a surah of Quran (forgot reference) an ayah tells muslims to kill non-muslims. However, when we see the context we find that: The pagans of Quraish had signed a treaty with muslims which they broke. They were then given a time period to mend their ways or the peace treaty would end. They refused and the treaty was broken. Consequently, a battle took place and this verse was revealed to Prophet Muhammad on battlefield, that once the battle starts if muslims find a non-muslim ( in the battlefield) they are to kill him and should not run away.
Then a later verse even says that : if a non-muslim is ready to surrender he should be spared. And should be escorted to a place of security, away from war.

However, people use verses out of context to server their purpose.

 

[moegypt]

After I read the posts I can only conclude that Koran is easily manipulated by those who want to use violence against others.

A violent person can easily use koranic verses to justify his violent deeds.

For example sucide bombers and terrorists in gerneral.

A book that can be easily manipulated and used by violent people to justify violent acts is a danger to the society and needs to be changed.

I guess that you didn't read the Qur'an well.

Alot of people are affected by media.

 

[moegypt]

But if the take the Quran in translation and consider Marmaduke Pickthall's translation, which is arguably the best English translation of the Quran, we would no doubt concede that its literature is remarkable. However, when I compare it with the King James Version of the Bible, I would say that King James Bible surpasses the Quran in excellence of literature,

I don't talk about translation... Translation of the Qur'an didn't and can't transfer the miracle of Qur'an... The miracle is in th Arabic language not the translation.

 

[England my lionheart]

abt the bible ill agree!!! but abt the qur'an i beg to differ!!!!wat makes u think qur'an was a human handiwork???..do let me know!!

Come on a man wrote it

 

[England my lionheart]

And took some time about it,do you thinkGod be that slow,no it is a way of control just as religion was used over a 1000 years ago when muslims tried to invade europe or the crusaders.

 

[England my lionheart]

bother lion heart

look if it's only abt the prolonged time..(tht u beleive it isnt a word of god).....
it can be easily refuted..........it was written over a period of time because it made sense to do so......let's use the conflicting approach let's say the prophet muhammed peace be upon him once went in the caves of arabia and 3 days later came back with the entire qur'an in his head.......(would this serve the purpose??)
point 1.the prophet was an illiterate(giving him so much to learn in 3 days is a joke)
perhaps u don't know at every point of time while he was revealed a revelation he had to actually by heart the revelation......it wasnt like god him the spiritual wave and tht penetrated his head to stay forever hence was immediately by hearted by him and written down...........
2.giving him revelations at different points of time made more sense as it was only then coincident with the prophet's life.........for example...i suppose u know abt the verse which says "kill the mushriqeens"(non beleivers i.e. pagans) the history is such tht the pagans of mecca violated norms..and failed to maintain peace...after which a time of 4 months was given to make amendments ,but they continued their barbaric lifestyles..hence giving a verse like this for example when he happened to go in the cave initially wouldnt make sense.....the qur'an makes a lot of prophecies which of which had to be said at appropriate points of time.....
3.if u say tht the prolonged time is ur proof to say tht it isnt a word of god ...i think it's a lame excuse because i too could say tht the qur'an is the word of god because the excellence and pecular way in which it wasnt written down page wise or numerical wise(which is done by us humans)..instead in a divinly fashion...e.g. the first verse frm the qur'an wasnt at all frm the 1st page or the 1st chapter rather the 9th chapter.............my question to u is>>>why is the bible written my more than 40 people with errors and the qur'an by(alledged that) a single man, an illiterate man flawless????

Hw can it be flawless,and yes it was written by a man,confusious wrote some fantastic stuff,common sense things a long time ago that you see in the bible qur'an etc but did not claim to get these things from god.
This also follows with the great scholars plato,hypocrates,aristotle the lis is endless.
I for example could write something and employ logic so that what is written can not be misconstrude and claim it came from God would you believe me,no i doubt it and i or muhamed could not prove it either.
As for the bible ,yes it was written by different people so lets see if as you say 40 people and you have only one who claimed to get the message from God does this make the bible 40 times more holy than the qur'an or would you say the bible is a load nonsense and did not come from God.......umnnn tough one for you as there is a simiarity in places between the two.

 

[England my lionheart]

hello guys!! im new to this forum

to the dude:jon is correct ....prophet muhammed wasnt the 1 who intialized islam..we beleive islam began when the 1st man placed his foot on the planet...as most are aware..the essence in the message of islam is abt monotheism..we beleive all prophets carried this basic mesaage...prophet muhammed peace be upon him was a sort of catalyst in spreading islam.......

to the universe: wats special in islam? well all religions say robbing is bad,eg.christianity says robbing is bad,hinuism says robbing is bad...here comes islam saying not only robbing is bad but gives u a solution to curb the problem..viz choppin of hands...this law is very practical...the mere thought of ones hands gettin chopped of deters one frm stealing...in short islam is also a way of life......all this frm a man 1400 yrs ago..frm an illiterate man......

1400 years ago is indeed a long time but when one considers that the dead sea scrolls are over two thousand years old and were written abt 100 years before Jesusshould we not pay more attention to those.

 

[K.Venugopal]

...i suppose u know abt the verse which says "kill the mushriqeens"(non beleivers i.e. pagans) the history is such tht the pagans of mecca violated norms..and failed to maintain peace...

Are you saying some verses in the Quran only make sense in the context of the historical circumstances? This means that some verses are not universal in application for all time. How can the words of God be so circumscribed? Since historical circumstances do not recur, each being unique, are such verses useless? If so, why are they in the Quran?

 

[K.Venugopal]

...all this frm a man 1400 yrs ago..frm an illiterate man......

An illiterate man is not a stupid man. He does not read and write, that's all. Mohammad did not need to be literate anyway; his companions took dictation and read out to him. In any case, he was only memorizing what Allah said and passing on. Where does illiteracy come in? It would have been a miracle, of course, if Mohammad was deaf.

 

[England my lionheart]

when u say how can it be flawless??? doesnt prove it to have flaws............make ur point.......if neccesary u show me versus tht have flaws(according to u).....i doubt whether u have even read the qur'an....ur making sweeping generalisation tht because the bible is illogical, hence the qur'an has to be so...........see tht doesnt prove anythng..............

yes! so wats the criteria to say a word is word of god....if i say 2+2=4 it may be true....but if i say this is wat god told me..no ones gonna beleive me.....

but if i happen to be an illiterate living 1400 yrs ago and is say tht the universe began with a bigbang, if i say the universe is expanding,if i say the earth is geospherical, i tell u the shape of the sperm correctly(without microscope), describe u the stages of embryology in concise and accurate manner tht it may put the stages of embryology of modern science to shame, talk abt evaporation(tht was unseen) oceanology,i tell u tht light if moon is reflected light and not it's own,i tell u tht an atom is not the smallest particle and can be broken down in further,abt bisexuality in lower species and on and on and on.......
and if they happen to be all correct! then ud tell me no dude , who told u tht?obviously u didnt know any of tht...then here the prophet says tht god told him.......


if u claim u can write someting tht cannot be misconstrude containing 114 chapters ..i say try doing tht ...i see u failing misersbly....i am an engineering student...i read exhaustive amounts of books ..ive never come across any book tht has absolutely no flaws except the qur'an.....u can try producing like one..go ahead test urself......publish tht i promise ill be the 1st person to buy ur book...........

nope not tough at all...let me make an unequivocal statement..i do not beleive in the bible as the word of god..........so it could become holy only if it was written by 40 prophets...but mark luke mathew etc etc ....r not prophets....i beleive in the ingeel given to jesus...but wat bible u see today is not even close to the ingeel given down to prophet jesus...............just because there r similarities doesnt mean they r the same.....there r similarities because the source was same i.e. god , the differences r because the ingeel was either not written down in it's original form or maligned by man(church) himself..........

id like to know ur stand...r u athest/agnostoc types???.......

I follow no religion i believe in God but the qur'an, Bible,etc are written by men and none can be proven,again i will remind you that the chinese were practising acupuncture in the stoneage these things were gained through human experience gained in the many years before the bible or qur'an
Or the sumerians who were well advanced and have the earliest written language or the mayans who had their own librarys all gained trough human experience.
Early man does'nt get the credit for finding things out for themselves,how things work etc much of what you say is in the qur'an would have been gained through human experience.
Even in my country a neolithic stone monument called stonehenge was built by people who could neither read or write and were around before the qur'an and it is still a functioning tool for the summer solstice and winter equinox so this leads me to say that what is written in the qr'an cannot be proven to be the work of God.

 

[England my lionheart]

when u say u beleive in god i.e. a 1 god i suppose ur very close to islam.......im clad to for tht..............


first of all qur'an is not a book on 'human experiences' or 'human experiences' alone...

look qur'an does not talk abt technological inventions at all ...like the stone henge u r talking abt......
technological inventions r all man made .....why do u want god to write in the qur'an abt the television set tht we use today or even the computer......
if ur point is abt scientific progress...well in prophets time it was not even known abt the exactness of the shape of the earth...or the universe in general.....i dont get it...when u say abt stone henge ...agreed tht it was a phenomenal astronomic calculator...but it has been built on observation and ofcourse the 'ABACUS' the first calculator(tht has origins as far as 6000-8000years ago in china although disputed to be used in all parts of the world).............so they were tools to get things done.....
but there werent tools to observe a sperm in a microscope to know it's shape....or to know the nature of universe or to observe the shape of the earth.........

I really do beieve in God but my God does not need me to pray a certain way or wear certain clothes or attend mass meetings to pray.
God is within yourself ,what makes you realise when something is right or wrong something all religions could do with,my God does'nt differentiate colour or creed and has no favourites.
My God gave me a gift,an insatiable need to go forward not backwards ,to question everything to boldly go where no mans been before LOL no seriously it would be beneficial if all the worlds religions took a good long look at themselves and see what they accomplish for the good of mankind eeerrrrm er umn well nothing zero zilch you could write it on a postage stamp yes my God is truly great and i would not swop him for any of yours.