Validity of Muhammad's message.

[England my lionheart]

ur statements invite a host of additional questions!! like how can u say tht he does not want u to pray??wat is prayer? it is tht ur being humble and r asking something frm him!!!!!!

ur concept of omnipresence is more prevalant in pagan religions.......for example if he is in everythng ..but he is only pure..his creation on other hand is both pure and impure....a pure god in an impure creation????

in islam very categorically it is so tht god's knowledge is abt everythng but not tht he is physically in every thing........

ur god does not differentiate between caste,creed ,sex etc etc....i agree tht's exactly wat the qur'an says...'We have created you from a single pair of male and female and have divided you into nations and tribes so that you may recognize each other not that you may despice each other'
neither he has any favorites ..it says specifically tht all r equal...............

u think no doubt,but ur not thinking tht far.......i d like to know

wat in ur opinion qualifies to be a word of god?????wat do u require in a book for u to beleive tht it is god's word?????

u can't say blatantly tht god doesnt want us to read a book and follow rules!!!after all have u asked god personally tht question? if not how can u claim so???

In my opinion God is'nt an old bearded man who sits on his throne in the sky and shakes his head in disaproval.
I think of God as the creator and think that all the religions of the world have got it wrong(yes i have some knowledge of many)when they all try to claim ownership of God
as if theirs is the only path ie only the muslims God is the one true God or christians or jew exclusive to each.

Let us take circumcism and beards and robes for example,would God prefer people who were circumcised covered their heads had a beard ,no i think not.
What book could convince me that it was the work of God? none because all books are written by men and i have nothing in common with something written over a 1000 years ago by people who saw the world a whole lot differently and used a lot of symbolism so what is written may not be what is meant literally.

I have much more in common with quantum physics or what we can do to help repair the damage we have caused to this planet,so instead of looking back we should be looking forwards to a future if we have one.

 

[England my lionheart]

Anyway to top it all the dead sea scrolls were written over 500 years before the qur'an and the qur,an is quite simmilar in places so could it be a case that there are some borrowed ideas in the qur'an.

 

[England my lionheart]

Before I say anything: I am not a Muslim (although Islam is a religion I'm very interested in), so I'm basing anything I say here off of what I've read. If I'm wrong about something I apologize.

But in all honesty it's no different than Christians following Jesus & his teachings. And the Muslim community are not "following Muhammad". They are following God's will, which God chose to pass on to the masses through Muhammad.

Also Muhammad did not "start" Islam. Muslims believe Islam is the faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc., etc. Basically the same religion as Judaism & Christianity. Both started as Islam but went off track. The Qu'ran is the absolute, pure, untarnished "version" (for lack of a better word) to bring everything back where Jews and Christians might have gone astray.

As for "couldn't he have been wrong?". Sure but that's where the whole absolute belief/faith thing comes into play.

But the dead sea scrolls pre date the qur'an by 500+ years so is'nt it possible that some ideas were taken from the biblical scriptures and put in the qur'an as it reads that way.

 

[opuntia]

Essentially, Muhammad is believed to have communicated with the Divine, therefore, what he said or have done has weight.

Sir John Glubb writes that Muhammad was always correct whenever he acted under a certain capacity: a prophet. But whenever he was not acting as a prophet, he made as many mistakes as we mortals do.

"The Apostle himself got into trouble owing to his ignorance of agriculture. [Muhammad was from Mecca and Meccans dealt in commerce, not agriculture.] The principle source of the livelihood of the people of Medina was their date palms. These trees, like some others, have male and female. To produce a crop of dates, the men climb the male tree, extract the pollen and insert it in the female tree. [Artificial insemination in our day.] This process was repugnant to Muhammad and he forbade the Muslims to follow it. But when the date harvest came round, the believers had no fruit, and the Apostle was obliged to admit that he had made a mistake. The Muslims soon appreciated the Prophet's position to the effect that when he received a divine revelation, it must be instantly obeyed; but that, where there was no revelation, he was liable to make as many mistakes as other men did." The Life and Times of Muhammad (Lanham, Maryland: Madison Books, 1998), 169-170.

Muhammad's authority lends him credence in the eyes of his believers.

As with all religions that are started by one man, a certain historical figure must appear where the man is divinely inspired or led by a certain otherworldly aura so as to fascinate the imagination of the people. No ordinary system would attract adherents on the scale Muhammad drew them.

 

[England my lionheart]

Essentially, Muhammad is believed to have communicated with the Divine, therefore, what he said or have done has weight.

Sir John Glubb writes that Muhammad was always correct whenever he acted under a certain capacity: a prophet. But whenever he was not acting as a prophet, he made as many mistakes as we mortals do.

"The Apostle himself got into trouble owing to his ignorance of agriculture. [Muhammad was from Mecca and Meccans dealt in commerce, not agriculture.] The principle source of the livelihood of the people of Medina was their date palms. These trees, like some others, have male and female. To produce a crop of dates, the men climb the male tree, extract the pollen and insert it in the female tree. [Artificial insemination in our day.] This process was repugnant to Muhammad and he forbade the Muslims to follow it. But when the date harvest came round, the believers had no fruit, and the Apostle was obliged to admit that he had made a mistake. The Muslims soon appreciated the Prophet's position to the effect that when he received a divine revelation, it must be instantly obeyed; but that, where there was no revelation, he was liable to make as many mistakes as other men did." The Life and Times of Muhammad (Lanham, Maryland: Madison Books, 1998), 169-170.

Muhammad's authority lends him credence in the eyes of his believers.

As with all religions that are started by one man, a certain historical figure must appear where the man is divinely inspired or led by a certain otherworldly aura so as to fascinate the imagination of the people. No ordinary system would attract adherents on the scale Muhammad drew them.

How about communism that still has many adherents but does not prove anything

 

[England my lionheart]

look islam categorically says god has no image.....so abt religions like hinduism where u have snakes around the god's islam differs in all respects....

in order to know which path is true , u need to know wat is the path of each of these religions by reading their scriptures/texts and not observing the followers...e.g.religion of hinuism has the holy vedas as their bible now it talks abt monotheism but all most all hinus toady preach in multiple gods...

circumcism wats tht?..or do u mean circumcision...well it is always beneficial for a man to undergo tht process after birth, the part of the foreskin has to be removed, now it is a helpful initiative to protect oneself frm infection..note:u r not completely immune to aids/hiv...but if ur not circumcised ur more susceptable to the infection....

also having a beard or wearing a cap is not at all a compulsory do in islam, there is no statement in the entire qur'an tht says u should have a beard, now i myself dont have a very long beard........so tht's ur misconception, people do it because it gives us a universal recognition tht if i walk by u past a street i recognize , oh ur a muslim.....but u can also be clean shaven and still be a grt muslim.....

i too share my passion for quantum physics brother, if einstein is a beleiver in religion, i ask u why r u not? ur remember he said "god does not play dice"....
and also said 'reason without religion is lame, but religion without reason is blind'
so i tell my non beleiving brothers to come and reason with me....

doing good for this world is indeed an important task no doubt but ur beleif in god's religion has to work parallel with tht....

I was not singling islam out for the beards clothes etc as there are other religions that do the same thing

 

[K.Venugopal]

Sir John Glubb writes that Muhammad was always correct whenever he acted under a certain capacity: a prophet. But whenever he was not acting as a prophet, he made as many mistakes as we mortals do.

Ordinary men move into the stage of godmen when, through meditation, they rise to a higher level. Then out of them are produced scriptures and/or great works. Thus were godmen like Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Guru Nanak and many others. However, Mohammad was unique because he seems to have had relapses from his high stage. Which is why he appeared to have acted out of sync with what we would recognize as the life of god-immersed men. Mohammad's many marriages and wars, for instance. This god-consciousness/relapse/god-consciousness/relapse seems to have been the pattern. This is reflected in the Quran too, with verses calling for killing of disbelievers and others saying to kill a single person is to kill mankind. This relapse from god-consciousness has not happened to Krishna, Buddha, Jesus or Guru Nanak. Thus there is no report of them having made any mistake in their lives subsequent to their god-realization.

 

[England my lionheart]

i personally do not know the authenticity of the dead scrolls....i read tht the story says there was some shepherd boy who found them,but there is no confirmation on that.....

now if there are some ideas frm those or the bible in the qur'an only means tht god almighty in his infinite wisdom thought of ideas as really crucial or important for them to be preserved for us....

The dead sea scrolls have been carbon dated and nearly all of it has been tanslated,ad yes they were found by a shepherd boy who had been looking for strays from his flock.

 

[K.Venugopal]

totally dude ...u need a freshers course on islam.....u never inderstood islam,u think understanding in ur own whims and fancies will suffice for the non sensical explanation u give out.......

This is amusing. Allah has promised you He will guard the Quran against any change. Now you, his slave, are attempting to ensure that I understand matters as you want them understood. I am not living in Saudi Arabia where they would probably cut my head off if I give a different interpretation to what is official.

wat do u mean my god men??be specific ,men choosen by god or god in human form...because for muhammed it can be only man choosen by god , nothing more ,he was only god's humble servant ....

Don’t get frightened by the word godmen. It is just to indicate men who are imbued with divinity. I consider Mohammad a godman.

when u say tht reflection of it is on the qur'an..i take strong objection....by saying tht ur raising questions abt the authenticity of qur'an as god's word.....

For me there is nothing unique about Quran being God’s word as I hold all words
are from God and lead to God.

abt killing the disbeleivers(the situation is sited in a battlefield)..when ur already at war in order to boost the morale of soldiers any general will tell his men to kill the

disbeleivers....even krishna beleive in jihad..

Krishna never ordered killing in the name of religion. His was a war of righteousness. Mohammad was all the time fighting for his religion, whether to destroy idols or convert kafirs to Islam.

and as far as no of wives r concerned qur'an mentions specifically giving a concession only for the prophet because most of the wives he had were all due to political reasons....khadija was much elder to him...the reason he married her was purely political and rest goes for the most of the wives he had....keeping in mind tht krishna is alledged to have 16000 wives...

Did Mohammad marry for his politics or Allah’s politics? Would Allah have required to play politics among the Bedouins of Mecca to spread his final message to mankind? As for Krishna’s 16000 wives, truly a godman! Who else could have managed so many wives?

 

[England my lionheart]

The dead sea scrolls are very interesting and contain the oldest book of isiah and has all the old testament has except esther plus things hat are'nt in the bible like psalms to david.
Also somthing else that is quite interesting they talk of a messiah ,well in fact two messiahs and a prophet but the people were a jewish sect called the essenes and although they were jewish kept themselves secular.

 

[England my lionheart]

This is amusing. Allah has promised you He will guard the Quran against any change. Now you, his slave, are attempting to ensure that I understand matters as you want them understood. I am not living in Saudi Arabia where they would probably cut my head off if I give a different interpretation to what is official.



Don’t get frightened by the word godmen. It is just to indicate men who are imbued with divinity. I consider Mohammad a godman.



For me there is nothing unique about Quran being God’s word as I hold all words
are from God and lead to God.



Krishna never ordered killing in the name of religion. His was a war of righteousness. Mohammad was all the time fighting for his religion, whether to destroy idols or convert kafirs to Islam.



Did Mohammad marry for his politics or Allah’s politics? Would Allah have required to play politics among the Bedouins of Mecca to spread his final message to mankind? As for Krishna’s 16000 wives, truly a godman! Who else could have managed so many wives?

WOW 16000 wives imagine them all nagging at once

 

[England my lionheart]

after all it was the great 'lord krishna'

Did they have viagra then ,because he would surely need it

 

[Don Penguinoini]

i really dont know abt viagra,probably they used some magical godly formula
but think abt wearing 16000 condoms!!!!

HAHAHA....NO! Your not funny. No need to offend my gods. I dont say anything out of respect fr you, have respect for my religion.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

after all it was the great 'lord krishna'

The great Lord Krishna did a lot of great. What has Islam done for the world??? I can think of quite few things...All good? Take a guess.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

look islam categorically says god has no image.....so abt religions like hinduism where u have snakes around the god's islam differs in all respects....

in order to know which path is true , u need to know wat is the path of each of these religions by reading their scriptures/texts and not observing the followers...e.g.religion of hinuism has the holy vedas as their bible now it talks abt monotheism but all most all hinus toady preach in multiple gods...

Well that is, rubbish. It isn't now...It has been for a long time. They are the worlds oldest scriptures. Multiple gods? Monotheism is a hindu ideal. We teach that all gods are a face of the true, supreme entity. So, get your facts straight...

YOU need a freshers course in Hinduism.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well that is, rubbish. It isn't now...It has been for a long time. They are the worlds oldest scriptures. Multiple gods? Monotheism is a hindu ideal. We teach that all gods are a face of the true, supreme entity. So, get your facts straight...

YOU need a freshers course in Hinduism.

Hey penguino i hope i have'nt offended you .

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Well that is, rubbish. It isn't now...It has been for a long time. They are the worlds oldest scriptures. Multiple gods? Monotheism is a hindu ideal. We teach that all gods are a face of the true, supreme entity. So, get your facts straight...

YOU need a freshers course in Hinduism.

So why is it that Hindus are willing to worship only some faces of God? I mean some believe in 6 faces of God, others 3 and others many more. If all gods are faces of one supreme God, then why not all are worshipped? Are hindus restricting themselves to only few faces of gods and not the complete being?

 

[K.Venugopal]

when u say u give different opinion of wat is official...ur saying ur going

against the conventional methods of wat is thought to be true...conventional methods in islam r based on knowledge of scholars, and on extensive search of historical truth....so ur saying a 1 man show who is indu(underqualifid) considers himself more qualified to comment on another grt religon called islam and justify with all might..now tht's hilarious...

Under Islam I might not have the right to go against the official version. But fortunately the world at large is not governed by the Shariat.

all religions r abt god no doubt..but then ur the one who's drawing the line...the line of difference by saying who made mistake and who didnt.....

I am glad you accept all religions are about God. I thought Islam teaches only Islam is about God. I did not catch what you meant about "drawing the line". Please elaborate.

righteous???please define krishna was fighting for righteous in terms of wat????

Certainly not in terms of Islam.

by the way muhammed never fought war for religion ..tht he fought for religion is one of the fantastic myth's created (not by u)by the enemies of islam ,because the growing message of islam and the rising religion is a threat to the non beleivers....

muhammed fought for rights just as krishna did

Mohammad in fact is the only religious founder who started his career by destroying others’ religions – the religions of the idol worshippers. Krishna on the contrary accepted all religions as being true.

let me give a scent of factual history and not fable

muhammed was born in mecca, one day he started preaching monotheism,the pagans couldnt take it because the statues of different god's were sold and bought them enormous wealth..so he(muhammed) and his followers were thrown out of his birth place(mecca) and left into the scorching desert.. muhammed travelled only to find medina, a prosperous paradise with righteous people.....now here his followers grew in no's...in the mean time meccan rulers heard tht muhammed and his message was growing, they sent people for his assasination but due to mysterious reasons all failed,and one day muhammed sent message to meccan leaders of his return(but in peace) ...at this meccan rulers declared war knowing he was nearby city limits....muhammed tried to negotiate but in many ways,yet those rulers never agreed....here after the pagans declaring war gave death threats not only to muhammed but even to followers of muhammed.....soon muhammed's birth place and his followers residence were all looted.....he had but no option but to declare war.....following when u say kill the nonbeleivers is only said when the war is on....ONCE victorious at war it was is moral right to preach his monotheism and do away with idols... for those who have tht anti-islamic scent make,muhammed breaking statues as an excuse for the war....

I agree Mohammad had a moral right to preach monotheism, whether he won wars or not. He also had the right to ensure that his new religion is not based on idol worship. But if he thought it was his moral right to do away idols of others' religions, he was only proving that he was an intolerant tyrant.

the above is not my story,it's in the qur'an...

Talking about stories, is it not in the Quran that Mohammad was lifted bodily from Mecca to Palestine by the Angles and placed on a rock, from where he got on to a steed (horse) and the steed flew him to meet Allah? Is this a story or a fact?

so read ur scriptures abt krishna , infact both fought krishna and muhammed and both fought gor righteous deeds ,,

u labelling muhammed's war as religious is like myself telling u tht krishna taught to kill ur cousins.... so be sure of facts before commenting....

In Islam, Allah Himself says that any religion other than Islam will not be accepted – that people who follow religions other than Islam would burn forever in hell. Is this not worse than Krishna killing his cousins, who anyway, according to Krishna’s teachings, would be born again?

abt the wives part......yes it was morally correct for muhammed to have the wives he had...if u say he played ALLAH's politics ..so be it ,it was ALLAH's political plan........after all he took grt care of all his wives,he is the true man to take care of so many wives..as for krishna having 16000 it's impossible to beleive tht he even knew all his wives by name or the very fact tht he treated all of them equally which is most important....and note i never said he 'managed 16000 wives, i only said he had 16000 wives'.......

If you believe that Mohammad’s marriages were political and it was in fulfillment of Allah’s politics that he married even a 9 year old when he was 54, you are confirming that you are a successful slave that Allah intended you to be. Krishna, however, did not marry for any politics. He was man enough to marry for the sake of marriage.

 

[K.Venugopal]

if i ask a common indu ..how many gods u believe in?? Some may say 3, some may say 33,and others may say a 1000, while the others may say 33 crores, 330 million. the common Hindu believes in a Philosophy known as ‘Pantheism’---that is, everything is god. The tree is god,the sun is god,the moon is god,the snake is god, the monkey is god, the human beings are god.The common Muslim believes that everything is God’s----GOD with an Apostofy‘S’ everything belongs to God.The tree belongs to God,the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God,the snake belongs to God, the monkey belongs to God, the human beings belong to God......take to foll versus:::

Fine. So you have stated the Muslim view and the Hindu views. Doesn’t this prove that there are many views of God? Can you prove that only Islamic view is right? Hinduism believes difference in views do not necessarily mean contradictory views. Whereas Islam believes what it states alone is true and all other views are contradictory views.

yajur veda 'na tasya pratima asti' 'there is no image of him' -----(no idols) yajur veda 32:3 further 'he is un born,he deserves our worship' yajur veda 40:8 'he is bodyless and pure' --(no idols) yajur veda 40:9 'they enter darkness who worship natural things' e.g.sun moon etc...'they sink deeper in darkness who worship simbhuti' sumbhuti means human creation e.g.table,fan,chair, idols etc... yajur veda 32:3 'na tasya pratima asti' 'there is no image of him' brahma sutra of hindu vedanta is 'ekyam brahm divitya natse ne na naste kinchan' 'there is only one god ,not a second ,not at all, not at all , not at the least bit' i could quote versus similarly frm sikhism, zorashtrinism,judaism,christanism(prove there is nothing like trinity) .....

I am glad you have extensively quoted the Vedas to prove it holds views that Quran also holds. This proves that there is nothing original in the Quran. Could Mohammad have plagiarized the Quran from the Vedas? However, it appears that the dubious scholar of the Vedas Dr. Zakir Naik has found what he was looking for in the Vedas. But if he had proceeded to read more, he would have found that the Vedas declare ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ – I am God. This Dr. Zakir Naik does not quote because it is not in the Quran also. However the great Mansoor Al Hillaj said the same thing when he said ‘Ane Al Haq’. He was promptly killed by Muslims for that!

 

[K.Venugopal]

as far as doing good for humanity i could go on and on....but ill give u only 1 example. when the prophet revealed the verse(just 1 verse) in the holy qur'an abt prohibiting alcohol,and all intoxicants...the barrels of arabia tht contained alcohol were all drained dry and was disposed off never to be refilled again ever......this was the power of just 1 verse and elimination of a evil like beer,wine,whisky etc etc.....

Maybe you are not aware of it, but liquor sales are brisk in Arabian countries and the clients are not just expatriates. Why, I know of a bar called Mecca bar in Oman. The justification is that Mecca actually means bar in Arabic and holy Mecca, birthplace of Islam, is actually pronounced Makkah! Obviously Mohammad's writ has not run flawlessly down the ages even in Arabia.