Various religious views on evolution

[Secret Chief]

What sutra?

Sorry, I didn't mean one in particular. Zen is sometimes characterised as being "outside scripture" yet paradoxically (or hypocritically!) encompasses a myriad of texts. Random example...one could quite easily spend a lifetime studying the works of Eihei Dogen, in fact people do PhDs in the stuff. People like you probably.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry, I didn't mean one in particular. Zen is sometimes characterised as being "outside scripture" yet paradoxically (or hypocritically!) encompasses a myriad of texts. Random example...one could quite easily spend a lifetime studying the works of Eihei Dogen, in fact people do PhDs in the stuff. People like you probably.

I have never read him. But I would love to. Thank you. I hope there is a translation because I don't know Japanese. Although I love Japanese chocolates. In the 90's they had the best chocolates in the world. Most people in the world don't know this. You eat their chocolates, you will leave your country.

 

[firedragon]

Literally Sangha means a group.

True. Sanga means the "in group". I mean "The in group" if you could understand what I mean. Like a club or society.

I am thinking that through time the Buddhist's used it to refer to the clergy, but as Sacred said Zen Buddhism has now changed it " (probably back to the original meaning). Because in the Tipitaka, the clergy is not called Sanga. They are called Bikku. Many Sutras begin by calling them "Bhikkave". But sometimes I wonder if it actually referring to the "adherent", not necessarily an official priest. Although, if that is the case there won't be a purpose for the Vinaya Pitaka. @Secret Chief See how we have derailed this thread?

But it's an interesting discussion because there is a Hindu here and a Zen Buddhist. What a combination???

Thanks for the dialogue. A lot of eyes open. And I shall order at least one book from Eihei Dogen. Let's see.

Cheers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Dharma is a "used word" to refer to doctrine. So you are making that difference. But it can any day, any time, in any world be used for and by any individual.

Tell me. What does "Kusala Dharma" mean?

No. Doctrine is 'mata'. Buddhism and Jainism were known as 'matas'. Jain and Sikhs also termed themselves as 'Panthas'.

Kusala/Kushala: Sanskrit - Dictionary
Normally it means "skillful", but there are many related qualities.

"Kusala and akusala, a pair of terms coined by the Buddha, are the primary terms to evaluate human behavior and morality. Literally, kusala can be differently rendered as skillful, intelligent, expert; good, right, virtuous, meritorious, beneficial; lucky, happy, healthy and prosperous, as the context demands. Akusala can, therefore, be translated into English as the opposite qualities from kusala such as unskillful, bad and so on."
http://www.buddhivihara.org/kusala-and-akusala-as-criteria-of-buddhist-ethics/

Dharma is not kusal or akusal, 'dhamma' is 'dhamma'. It is our actions which are so.

 

[Balthazzar]

Nothing. It advocates education, scientific inquiry and the pursuit of knowledge. Not having dogma concerning the origin of man, it's going to side with contemporary science relating to evolution.

Lucifereian? I'm a Christian evolutionist with luciferian principles. It's a good balance I think.

 

[Secret Chief]

I have never read him. But I would love to. Thank you. I hope there is a translation because I don't know Japanese. Although I love Japanese chocolates. In the 90's they had the best chocolates in the world. Most people in the world don't know this. You eat their chocolates, you will leave your country.

I always knew I was a Japanese trapped in an English body!
Dogen wrote a great deal (philosophy and, I think, poetry) and there are many books about his works (and of course translations of those works). Just to put you in the picture, he is the founder of Soto Zen, which is essentially Chan Zen that he "brought back" from China. If I had to sum up a life's work (!) then the message is that zen is expressed in living ie it is practice-enlightenment. Long time since I read it but if you're interested, perhaps "Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist" by Hee-Jin Kim. On the cover: "This book is an excellent comprehensive introduction to Dogen's massive corpus of intricate writings as well as his elegantly simple yet profound practice."

 

[Aupmanyav]

They are called Bikku. Many Sutras begin by calling them "Bhikkave". But sometimes I wonder if it actually referring to the "adherent", ..

A group of Bhikkhus will make a 'Sangha' / Sometimes also spelled as 'samgha'. Bhikkhave is the plural of Bhikkhu. Normally this will be for adherants, but there could be some Hindu ascetics visiting them to understand Buddha's doctrine. Bhikkhave (English: O Bhikkhus!) will include them too.
Enough for the day, Firedragon and Secret Chief. IshAllah, meet you tomorrow.

 

[Balthazzar]

Mine doesn't teach evolution, but it poetically alludes to it in Genesis, going so far as to suggest Eve became pregnant by Adam, then both made to leave home (as most husband's and wives do) to contunue on that path and support the new family. This doesn't imply incest either, unless you think they were literally the only two humans on earth.

 

[firedragon]

No. Doctrine is 'mata'.

My God. I meant "Buddhist Doctrine". Not the meaning of the word. What in the world are you fishing for Aup. Please stop just googling stuff and blurting them out like this.

Kusala/Kushala: Sanskrit - Dictionary
Normally it means "skillful", but there are many related qualities.

"Kusala and akusala, a pair of terms coined by the Buddha, are the primary terms to evaluate human behavior and morality. Literally, kusala can be differently rendered as skillful, intelligent, expert; good, right, virtuous, meritorious, beneficial; lucky, happy, healthy and prosperous, as the context demands. Akusala can, therefore, be translated into English as the opposite qualities from kusala such as unskillful, bad and so on."
http://www.buddhivihara.org/kusala-and-akusala-as-criteria-of-buddhist-ethics/

My God mate. I asked you what "Kusala Dhamma" means. Not what Kusala means. I know what Kusala means. This is not Kushala in Sanskrit. I am not referring to Kaushalya.

I will just state it because you will go googling again and bring some absurd thing just to respond to a post.

Kusala Dharma means "the way of doing good things". That's an ontological description. But for an individual, doing Kusala Dharma means just "good things". That's it.

I am trying to explain to you how the word changes trivially with the sentence.

"Kusala Dhamma Saarathee Saththaa deva manussanan buddho bagavathi".

That's an ontological posit.

Ekachche kusale dhamme atthani samanupassathi

That's for an individual.

That's why the word Dhamma is not necessarily for a whole and karthavya is for an individual.

Anyway, thanks for engaging.

Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

A group of Bhikkhus will make a 'Sangha' / Sometimes also spelled as 'samgha'. Bhikkhave is the plural of Bhikkhu. Normally this will be for adherants, but there could be some Hindu ascetics visiting them to understand Buddha's doctrine. Bhikkhave (English: O Bhikkhus!) will include them too.
Enough for the day, Firedragon and Secret Chief. IshAllah, meet you tomorrow.

Whats the difference between Vinaya Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka or Sutta Pitaka? Same word.

 

[firedragon]

I always knew I was a Japanese trapped in an English body!
Dogen wrote a great deal (philosophy and, I think, poetry) and there are many books about his works (and of course translations of those works). Just to put you in the picture, he is the founder of Soto Zen, which is essentially Chan Zen that he "brought back" from China. If I had to sum up a life's work (!) then the message is that zen is expressed in living ie it is practice-enlightenment. Long time since I read it but if you're interested, perhaps "Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist" by Hee-Jin Kim. On the cover: "This book is an excellent comprehensive introduction to Dogen's massive corpus of intricate writings as well as his elegantly simple yet profound practice."

I think that's probably the best advice. I will get this book. Anyway, when you said about the change in the Sangha, it intrigued me to understand Zen Buddhism better. My understanding is quite poor.

Thank you so much for taking your time to respond. I will not let that go to waste.

Peace.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm a Christian evolutionist

Does that mean that you accept the scientific theory of evolution, or some variant of it? Whenever I see a Christian say that he or she accepts the scientific theory, I can't help but notice that Christian doctrine and the scientific theory of evolution are incompatible. The scientific theory has evolution undirected, that is not striving to attain any particular form. Isn't that incompatible with man being created in God's image, which is very much a statement of an intended form?

Also, if the theory is correct, there were no first humans, no Adam and Eve, no original sin, and no reason to sacrifice Jesus.

I don't think one can believe that God created man in his image or sent Jesus to save mankind from Adam and Eve's disobedience if you accept the scientific theory of evolution unmodified.

 

[Balthazzar]

Does that mean that you accept the scientific theory of evolution, or some variant of it? Whenever I see a Christian say that he or she accepts the scientific theory, I can't help but notice that Christian doctrine and the scientific theory of evolution are incompatible. The scientific theory has evolution undirected, that is not striving to attain any particular form. Isn't that incompatible with man being created in God's image, which is very much a statement of an intended form?

Also, if the theory is correct, there were no first humans, no Adam and Eve, no original sin, and no reason to sacrifice Jesus.

I don't think one can believe that God created man in his image or sent Jesus to save mankind from Adam and Eve's disobedience if you accept the scientific theory of evolution unmodified.

I'm the image of my parents-the Bible and the scientific theory are compatible, but it requires a paradigm shift to acknowledge that fact. Genesis for example begins with the creation of the heavens and earth, then on to which came first, then came humans in the image of God who walked with them in the garden, sent them out to make their own way after coming of age, which likewise was a bit sacrificial- They (God-head) no longer had their help on the homestead.

Adam and Eve started caring for a family of their own, working the ground as cultivators, then on to raising sheep as a family through Able.

 

[Secret Chief]

I am thinking that through time the Buddhist's used it to refer to the clergy, but as Sacred said Zen Buddhism has now changed it " (probably back to the original meaning). Because in the Tipitaka, the clergy is not called Sanga. They are called Bikku.

Just spotted this

A bhikku is a male monk (female: bhikkhuni), who are members of the sangha. (The monastic community - called this within Theravada Buddhism):

- Sangha

But I'm not Sacred. Yet.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm the image of my parents-the Bible and the scientific theory are compatible, but it requires a paradigm shift to acknowledge that fact. Genesis for example begins with the creation of the heavens and earth, then on to which came first, then came humans in the image of God who walked with them in the garden, sent them out to make their own way after coming of age, which likewise was a bit sacrificial- They (God-head) no longer had their help on the homestead. Adam and Eve started caring for a family of their own, working the ground as cultivators, then on to raising sheep as a family through Able.

What paradigm shift? All you did was assert that the two are compatible without addressing the arguments made, and state the biblical narrative. So, rather than ask again, I'll just state that the scientific theory and the biblical narrative are incompatible. One says man was made in God's image and the other says that he evolved undirected. Also, one says that Adam and Eve were the first two people in the world and their original sin the reason Jesus' sacrifice was required, and other says that there were no first two people, no human being not born to other human beings.

I still don't know what you believe about evolution or why you call yourself an evolutionist, but I can tell that you don't accept the scientific theory. Nor do I know why you call the Bible and the science compatible when I have shown you where they are in conflict, which conflict you didn't address except to wave it away with the phrase "paradigm shift" without offering one.

 

[Balthazzar]

What paradigm shift? All you did was assert that the two are compatible without addressing the arguments made, and state the biblical narrative. So, rather than ask again, I'll just state that the scientific theory and the biblical narrative are incompatible. One says man was made in God's image and the other says that he evolved undirected. Also, one says that Adam and Eve were the first two people in the world and their original sin the reason Jesus' sacrifice was required, and other says that there were no first two people, no human being not born to other human beings.

I still don't know what you believe about evolution or why you call yourself an evolutionist, but I can tell that you don't accept the scientific theory. Nor do I know why you call the Bible and the science compatible when I have shown you where they are in conflict, which conflict you didn't address except to wave it away with the phrase "paradigm shift" without offering one.

Consider that all is God, including us and everything else.

 

[sun rise]

I think that's probably the best advice. I will get this book. Anyway, when you said about the change in the Sangha, it intrigued me to understand Zen Buddhism better. My understanding is quite poor.

Thank you so much for taking your time to respond. I will not let that go to waste.

Peace.

Many years ago I read and profited from Kapleau's "Three Pillars of Zen".

 

[firedragon]

Just spotted this

A bhikku is a male monk (female: bhikkhuni), who are members of the sangha. (The monastic community - called this within Theravada Buddhism):

- Sangha

But I'm not Sacred. Yet.

Haha. Apologies. This is why I hate autocorrect. It's such a nuisance.

 

[Secret Chief]

Haha. Apologies. This is why I hate autocorrect. It's such a nuisance.

I could get used to it.

 

[firedragon]

@Secret Chief By the way, Bhikkuni is not a word that exists in the old, Pali Buddhist discourse. It maybe a latter development to distinguish male and female priests.

Cheers.