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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

james bond

Well-Known Member
How is it that George Harrison recognized Jesus? I'm assuming you mean through the Harri Krishna movement.

Yes, GH became Hindu, and it was this influence towards the end. However, before that he was baptized Roman Catholic. He rebelled against Catholicism and was anti-Christ. For awhile, I think he was agnostic but changed when he went to India and was influenced by Ravi Shankar. This, he kept until the end.

If you mean he followed Jesus, then no. He followed Krishna. I'm not familiar with the Hindu religion so maybe someone else here can explain.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
You're taking it too literally. Lennon was a spiritual person like George, if not a Christian. He's not advocating atheism, but being against the traditional Christian ideas of heaven, hell and organized religion, and instead promoting world peace.
Yet he was an "out of the closet" Atheist.
He clearly states he doesn't believe there is a God.
So claiming the song Is not promoting disbelief in God is wrong.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Why are we so concerned with the religious views of some psychedelic imbibing artists?

Beats me. I am as confused as you, as to why JB brought up GH's song which had nothing to do with the subject he was replying to. :shrug:

Perhaps he thought he could win some points against atheists. He did say something about inspiring song, as of the song's theme had to do with Jesus.

But he was mistaken. And now he doing a bit of back-pedalling so he don't have to admit his idea was wrong.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Of course it is if you want the raven to return. I figure Noah was smart and he had God advising him. It was planned to release the raven first if you ask me. If the dove did not return, then it probably died. Thus, he sent the raven out first to check. Had the raven returned, then he would not have sent out the dove. Make sense?

What evidence do you have that a raven cannot find a place in the ocean to rest?

You didn't read what I said, did you? I said that the raven would be seeking a place to rest, and if the only place was the ark, then that's where it would go. It wouldn't need a homing instinct to do that!
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
You didn't read what I said, did you? I said that the raven would be seeking a place to rest, and if the only place was the ark, then that's where it would go. It wouldn't need a homing instinct to do that!

This is interesting to me because I live next to a river and have crows and ravens close by and do not want them in my neighborhood. They usually wake up earlier than humans and make noise. Previously, I could not see why God would create such creatures. However, reading about Noah and learning what ravens do changed my mind.

I think I did read what you said. I think we agree this is after the 40 days and 40 nights. Where we disagree is where the raven would be seeking a place to rest. In your scenario, it would need a homing instinct to return to the ark. I thought the raven would land on some flotsam for rest, if necessary. The raven would be able to survive in the waters and not return. Again, that's why Noah released the raven first; For he wanted to know if there was a chance of finding land before sending the dove out. He wanted the raven to not return for then there was a chance of finding land. In the long chance that the raven did return, then Noah would not have sent the dove out. He would send the raven out again later.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This is interesting to me because I live next to a river and have crows and ravens close by and do not want them in my neighborhood. They usually wake up earlier than humans and make noise. Previously, I could not see why God would create such creatures. However, reading about Noah and learning what ravens do changed my mind.

I think I did read what you said. I think we agree this is after the 40 days and 40 nights. Where we disagree is where the raven would be seeking a place to rest. In your scenario, it would need a homing instinct to return to the ark. I thought the raven would land on some flotsam for rest, if necessary. The raven would be able to survive in the waters and not return. Again, that's why Noah released the raven first; For he wanted to know if there was a chance of finding land before sending the dove out. He wanted the raven to not return for then there was a chance of finding land. In the long chance that the raven did return, then Noah would not have sent the dove out. He would send the raven out again later.

Except that the Genesis Flood and the Ark were never original story of the Flood.

The Babylonian Flood was very popular in the Middle East, and during the Bronze Age tablets of Babylonian myths, especially that of the Epic of Gilgamesh have spread far west as Egypt and the Hittite capital.

Tablets of Gilgamesh and other works have been found in Ugarit and in Megiddo. And these Babylonian myths were still popular throughout the 1st millennium BCE, when people of Judah found themselves as hostages in Babylon during the 6th century BCE.

The Akkadian Epic of Atrahasis provide even more detail about the Flood than that of Epic of Gilgamesh. There are older myth that of the Epic of Atrahasis, but the Sumerian Eridu Genesis (late 3rd millennium BCE) is badly fragmented, so a large part of the Flood is missing, but there are enough of Eridu Genesis to know that the Epic of Atrahasis is based on the older Sumerian text.

The Epic of Atrahasis was written in about 1700 BCE, based on it mentioning the name of author Ipiq-Aya, who lived in the reign of Babylonian king Ammi-sadqua. So we know that the Epic is centuries older than Genesis, which (Genesis) dated somewhere in second half of 1st millennium BCE.

The Epic described Enki (Ea) and Enlil were responsible for the creation of humans, in the 1st tablet, and in the 2nd tablet, Enlil wanted to destroy men, because of over-population and the noises were disturbing his temperament.Enlil would order pestilences, drought, famine, but Enki would foil Enlil's plan. In the 3rd tablet, it narrated Enlil decided to destroy man with the Flood.

Again, Enki foiled Enlil's plan, by informing Atrahasis on how to save himself, his family and some of servants, by building a vessel. Some of the differences between Epic and Genesis are that the Flood in the Epic -
  1. had nothing to do with mankind being evil,
  2. the Flood rain had only lasted 7 days and 7 nights,
  3. there are more than one god in the Epic.
Where they are strikingly similar is the Epic also include:
  1. building of the vessel to save Atrahasis and company,
  2. after the rain, Atrahasis releasing the birds to find land,
  3. and the odor of burnt sacrifice drew the attention of the gods.
It is very clear to me that the Hebrew version had borrowed Babylonian version, and adapted it for Hebrew religion and Hebrew readers.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Tiberius, it may not be evidence to you, but this is evidence of the wisdom of God. Just yesterday, I was talking with my friendly neighborhood JW who came to visit. She is a pretty blonde 19 or 20-yr old. She tells me that the ancient people believed the early Bible to be God's word. Now, it took science for me to get into the Bible, but there was no science at the time. So how did the early century people believe that it truly was God's word? I would think the stories themselves present the evidence. She said it was God's love for the people. She also knew how people come to accept it through science, history, reasoning and such, but to her the key was God's love. I have to think about that one.

In this case, Noah sending the raven out first is evidence of God.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
This is interesting to me because I live next to a river and have crows and ravens close by and do not want them in my neighborhood. They usually wake up earlier than humans and make noise. Previously, I could not see why God would create such creatures. However, reading about Noah and learning what ravens do changed my mind.

I think I did read what you said. I think we agree this is after the 40 days and 40 nights. Where we disagree is where the raven would be seeking a place to rest. In your scenario, it would need a homing instinct to return to the ark. I thought the raven would land on some flotsam for rest, if necessary. The raven would be able to survive in the waters and not return. Again, that's why Noah released the raven first; For he wanted to know if there was a chance of finding land before sending the dove out. He wanted the raven to not return for then there was a chance of finding land. In the long chance that the raven did return, then Noah would not have sent the dove out. He would send the raven out again later.

How can I make this any clearer? It does NOT need a homing instinct to return to the ark.

All it needs is to say, "Gee, I'm surrounded by water and my wings are getting tired. The only place I can see to stop flying is that boat thing down there. I guess it is that or I'll die."

That is NOT a homing instinct!
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Tiberius, it may not be evidence to you, but this is evidence of the wisdom of God. Just yesterday, I was talking with my friendly neighborhood JW who came to visit. She is a pretty blonde 19 or 20-yr old. She tells me that the ancient people believed the early Bible to be God's word. Now, it took science for me to get into the Bible, but there was no science at the time. So how did the early century people believe that it truly was God's word? I would think the stories themselves present the evidence. She said it was God's love for the people. She also knew how people come to accept it through science, history, reasoning and such, but to her the key was God's love. I have to think about that one.

In this case, Noah sending the raven out first is evidence of God.

No, that is not evidence of God. It is evidence that people who don't understand how the world works will accept whatever story the witch doctor or chief or medicine man of their tribe tells them, because they would rather have some explanation instead of an honest "I don't know."
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
How can I make this any clearer? It does NOT need a homing instinct to return to the ark.

All it needs is to say, "Gee, I'm surrounded by water and my wings are getting tired. The only place I can see to stop flying is that boat thing down there. I guess it is that or I'll die."

That is NOT a homing instinct!

Sounds like you're using Tiberius logic and applying it to the raven. I'm going by what the video explained and from articles I've read on homing instincts of birds and gotquestions.org. I'm an ex-raven/crow hater and now was enlightened, so am not an expert on ravens by any means.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
No, that is not evidence of God. It is evidence that people who don't understand how the world works will accept whatever story the witch doctor or chief or medicine man of their tribe tells them, because they would rather have some explanation instead of an honest "I don't know."

You're entitled to how your world works, but I'm using some kind of source to explain. If you're an non-believer, then probably nothing will be enough evidence to you when God exists right in front of your very nose.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You're entitled to how your world works, but I'm using some kind of source to explain. If you're an non-believer, then probably nothing will be enough evidence to you when God exists right in front of your very nose.
Which "evidence"?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you're using Tiberius logic and applying it to the raven. I'm going by what the video explained and from articles I've read on homing instincts of birds and gotquestions.org. I'm an ex-raven/crow hater and now was enlightened, so am not an expert on ravens by any means.

Do you actually think that birds never go anywhere unless they have a homing instinct for that place?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You're entitled to how your world works, but I'm using some kind of source to explain. If you're an non-believer, then probably nothing will be enough evidence to you when God exists right in front of your very nose.

No, you're using an anecdote.

Just because your friend believed it and said it doesn't make it true.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Do you actually think that birds never go anywhere unless they have a homing instinct for that place?

It depends on the bird. What knowledge do you have to say the things you believe ravens will return to their point of origin if they cannot find land? Are you saying they can't swim if they can't find flotsam to rest on? I'm not sure what ways animals, birds in this case, use to navigate, but here are some: topographic, celestial, magnetic, olfactory and memory (being familiar).

This is interesting in that this is evidence of God.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
No, you're using an anecdote.

Just because your friend believed it and said it doesn't make it true.

I'm using gotquestions.org, the Bible, reasoning and that youtube to back my statements up. It seems all you're using is your logic and intuition which is probably wrong. Just sayin'.
 
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