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War: the Pope says that mankind is in danger; strive for peace

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That would be absolutely understandable. But we cannot violate the article 11 of our Constitution. That clearly states that international disputes can be solved exclusively with peace and diplomacy and not with war.

Take #2:
"
Article 11 [Repudiation of War]
Italy shall repudiate war as an instrument of offence against the liberty of other peoples and as a means for settling international disputes; it shall agree, on conditions of equality with other states, to such limitations of sovereignty as may be necessary to allow for a legal system that will ensure peace and justice between nations; it shall promote and encourage international organizations having such ends in view."

I read it differently.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Take #2:
"
Article 11 [Repudiation of War]
Italy shall repudiate war as an instrument of offence against the liberty of other peoples and as a means for settling international disputes; it shall agree, on conditions of equality with other states, to such limitations of sovereignty as may be necessary to allow for a legal system that will ensure peace and justice between nations; it shall promote and encourage international organizations having such ends in view."

I read it differently.
Enlighten me.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Come clean and explain what is actually missing with specific examples.

I thought I did that. Is it not obvious to you that the biologist's explanation of poetry is lacking?

There are things going on in a given poem that biological science fails to capture. I assume that's obvious to everyone.

Take this poem:

Faces

by Kahlil Gibran

I have seen a face with a thousand countenances, and a face that was but a single countenance as if held in a mould.

I have seen a face whose sheen I could look through to the ugliness beneath, and a face whose sheen I had to lift to see how beautiful it was.

I have seen an old face much lined with nothing, and a smooth face in which all things were graven.

I know faces, because I look through the fabric my own eye weaves, and behold the reality beneath.

***

There is rhythm, cadence, structure and meaningfulness expressed that the biologist fails to capture in her explanation. And to be clear, I think the biologist's interpretation of what poetry is, is accurate. But I also think it's incomplete. Same goes for life in general.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
darwinistically speaking, the most squalid and horrific emblem of involution.

It might help if he understood evolution, or how to spell it, though I suspect that hilarious error isn't his? ;)

I think war is the most horrific thing that mankind has ever conceived.

Odd given the RCC wouldn't exist without the wars waged by the papacy or on their behalves?

Let's demonstrate we have evolved from that stage.

By not listening to religious absolutists wearing frocks, and living in their on private fortified cities, with their own private armies.

Let us reject war as instrument of getting peace. It is impossible. Peace is achieved through peace only.

COUGH! Nazism COUGH!:rolleyes:
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It say offense, not defense. Nato is a defensive alliance. If say Poland is attacked, Italy joins on the side of Poland. If Poland attacks somebody Italy don't have to join as a member of Nato. Only in the case of defending another member.
Ukraine is not in the NATO.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I thought I did that. Is it not obvious to you that the biologist's explanation of poetry is lacking?

There are things going on in a given poem that biological science fails to capture. I assume that's obvious to everyone.

Take this poem:

Faces

by Kahlil Gibran

I have seen a face with a thousand countenances, and a face that was but a single countenance as if held in a mould.

I have seen a face whose sheen I could look through to the ugliness beneath, and a face whose sheen I had to lift to see how beautiful it was.

I have seen an old face much lined with nothing, and a smooth face in which all things were graven.

I know faces, because I look through the fabric my own eye weaves, and behold the reality beneath.

***

There is rhythm, cadence, structure and meaningfulness expressed that the biologist fails to capture in her explanation. And to be clear, I think the biologist's interpretation of what poetry is, is accurate. But I also think it's incomplete. Same goes for life in general.

You can think all you like that it is the case, but it doesn't make it a fact. If that was the case, thinking God exists, would make God exist.
I know what you are getting at, but here is what is missing.
Some words have no objective physical referent and seems to be a result of physical processes. but can't be reduced to a physical process.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
You can think all you like that it is the case, but it doesn't make it a fact. If that was the case, thinking God exists, would make God exist.

"Biological science can't adequately describe what poetry is" and "Thinking God exists means that God actually exists."

These two statements are interchangeable to you?

I know what you are getting at, but here is what is missing.
Some words have no objective physical referent and seems to be a result of physical processes. but can't be reduced to a physical process.

I disagree. In my view everything can (and in many cases ought to be) reduced to a physical explanation. But not all of those physical explanations are complete.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Putin want the war, because he wanted to remake the Russian Empire. We in the West help Ukraine, because we feel with them and are on their side. I doubt you believe that, but let us see.


I have my doubts. Putin’s aggression notwithstanding, to some extent I believe we in the West support Ukraine because our leaders see victory over Russia in a proxy war, as being in their interests; this is the narrative they push on us, their citizens.

Maybe western governments should be focusing on encouraging a negotiated settlement, not on pushing Russia further into a corner (which NATO has been doing since 1989).
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Maybe western governments should be focusing on encouraging a negotiated settlement, not on pushing Russia further into a corner (which NATO has been doing since 1989).
Putin has put himself into "a corner".
He decided to invade Ukraine.

Anybody thinking straight would know that it would be frowned upon internationally, He didn't care.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Papa Francesco: umanità in grande pericolo, lottate per la pace


I think war is the most horrific thing that mankind has ever conceived. It is, darwinistically speaking, the most squalid and horrific emblem of involution.
Let's demonstrate we have evolved from that stage.
Let us reject war as instrument of getting peace. It is impossible. Peace is achieved through peace only.
We humans can't seem to avoid war, because we humans simply do not see ourselves as all members of a single family. And because we do not hold our leaders -- for the most part -- accountable. The Pope, just for example, is there for life -- and when he decides to speak ex cathedra, it appears he's also "infallible." Donald Trump is deemed almost a god by an enormous number of Americans, which just boggles my mind. And the ideologies and weird beliefs we cling to, and how we fear those not quite like us, instead of getting to know them. The Pope says "peace" is the answer, I say "familiarity" is the answer. You cannot fear that with which you are familiar and understand.

I quote again from Carl Sagan, from "Pale Blue Dot," speaking about the earth as seen looking back towards the sun from Saturn, a tiny blue dot seen through one of Saturn's rings. The Earth is, he says, home to:

The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
No, and Nato is not at war.

How much of their support is carrying this thing? I guess the belief I'm sort of settled on, is that the initial nato support was alright - but I agree now with the pope, that this thing has to come to an end. And that is simply because, if things keep going, I think it may just get more and more unpredictable. Recently there was the nordstream situation, and the bridge attack, and things like that just can't continue.

If globalization is the goal, to defang russia, I still think it will happen given enough time. It may take another century, but it will happen, if the world survives that long
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Today humans live by human law.

Civilisation.

It's status when innocent mind of men changed by Satan's burning returned earth star.

Brain prickled first position human life changed.

Life isn't a thesis.

King man on throne owning earths jewels as a man god term. Wanted science machination outcome for trade. His lords.

King and lord fake law of men. Civilisation.

Meek being natural life family consciousness healers. Innate natural aware of everything and each self. Now we are far separated consciously and by human law.

Men began this evil journey. Men always end it also. They destroy civilisation.

By Satanism science...machine technology.

So rich aware humans said to be rich is an honour and I must obey my calling. To keep the world family safe.

As I invented this evil myself. Father please advise me...my spiritual consciousness.

So he has.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
NATO is, however, actively supporting one of the protagonists in a war.
Exactly. The NATO is not acting as a super partes peacemaker. Or super partes peacekeeper.
He is acting like a very partial, biased organization.
.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's amazing that the Pope isn't relating what Jesus said -- yet he's afraid the world may collapse?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe in the goodness of people and that we will establish peace soon.
So then, all those people who do bad things to others will -- what?
Although the Bible does say that the world will declare peace and security, and guess what will happen then...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We humans can't seem to avoid war, because we humans simply do not see ourselves as all members of a single family. And because we do not hold our leaders -- for the most part -- accountable. The Pope, just for example, is there for life -- and when he decides to speak ex cathedra, it appears he's also "infallible." Donald Trump is deemed almost a god by an enormous number of Americans, which just boggles my mind. And the ideologies and weird beliefs we cling to, and how we fear those not quite like us, instead of getting to know them. The Pope says "peace" is the answer, I say "familiarity" is the answer. You cannot fear that with which you are familiar and understand.

I quote again from Carl Sagan, from "Pale Blue Dot," speaking about the earth as seen looking back towards the sun from Saturn, a tiny blue dot seen through one of Saturn's rings. The Earth is, he says, home to:

The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.
Carl Sagan was right on a number of issues -- not all, though. At least he saw and declared "man's inhumanity to man." In that he certainly agrees with King Solomon, who observed thousands of years ago that the human family has long experienced terrible oppression and injustice. He wrote: “I myself returned that I might see all the acts of oppression that are being done under the sun, and, look! the tears of those being oppressed, but they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power, so that they had no comforter. And I congratulated the dead who had already died rather than the living who were still alive. So better than both of them is the one who has not yet come to be, who has not seen the calamitous work that is being done under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 4:1-3
 
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