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Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
England my lionheart said:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
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...that IS creepy. I will say, as much as I defend these people, I am very glad we don't live in that society.
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Riverwolf said:
Very likely. :yes:



The answer is actually a bit more complicated than you may want, but bear with me.

The circumstance in this case is this: the majority of men back then would have been sexually attracted to a physically sexually mature girl, regardless of age. Therefore, does this make the majority of men back then mentally unhealthy?

If the answer is yes, then we might also speculate that the majority of people living nowadays are mentally unhealthy for doing things we don't realize are indicative of poor mental health, but which will be realized in a few centuries.

Nowadays, an adult male sexually desiring a 9-year-old is mentally unhealthy, because his own sexuality didn't mature past that age. (I fully admit that I might be mistaken on this, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

As for acceptable, it was accepted by the majority back then, and they're the ones who got to determine acceptability back then. We don't, because they're dead and gone; all we can do is look at the past and say whether or not something they did would be acceptable now, and now, there is NO instance when sex with a 9 year old, even if she reached puberty early, is okay. If a culture nowadays is still doing that, then that culture REALLY needs to get with the times, to put it mildly, and I don't often speak out against other cultures.

Basically, here's my argument: acceptable and not acceptable doesn't apply to bygone ages except when used as examples of acceptability and non-acceptability today. When we determine whether or not something is acceptable, it's so we can enforce certain rules today; since we can't enforce our modern rules in ye olden days, we don't really get to determine whether or not something is acceptable for them.

And as for mental health,it is my understanding that mental health is most often directly linked to whether or not an individual can function in any given society. (Again, I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I am.) Therefore, we can logically conclude that a mental state which would cause societal problems now, but not back in times long gone, then it was not mentally unhealthy back then.

Am I making sense?
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I understand everything you're saying. What I'm saying, is that regardless of whether a nine year old girl is going through puberty or not, there is no way a nine year old girl will be physically sexually mature - they will not appear as a sexually mature woman - at best they will be just starting to show sexual characteristics. And, as far as I know, studies have shown that although many girls in the developed world are now beginning to enter puberty at around 10 years old, this wasn't the case in decades and centuries past, so the likelihood of a nine year old even entering puberty was less likely in the past.

Regardless, when you take into account that any development of a nine year old will necessarily be limited - sexually, physically, emotionally, and intellectually - to an adult male, they will for all intents and purposes appear as a child. Whatever time period you're talking about, healthy adults do not respond sexually to those they perceive as children.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I'm wondering if they would still defend it as rigorously as they do if it didn't involve a beloved and revered religious figure.
 
Photonic

Photonic

Ad astra!
Kilgore Trout said:
I've never seen anyone else defend sex with nine year olds outside of NAMBLA propaganda.
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Oh for crying out loud, would you stop this crusade to mark everyone who disagrees with your set in stone view as a child rape supporter?

You have clearly missed the ENTIRE point of everyone's post. I think this thread needs to be locked.
 
Badran

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Riverwolf said:
...that IS creepy.
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If it actually happened.

Its pretty sad that almost no one addressed what the OP was offering; historical arguments against these accounts, demonstrating that it is impossible for Aisha to have been 9 years old at the time.
 
Photonic

Photonic

Ad astra!
Badran said:
If it actually happened.

Its pretty sad that almost no one addressed what the OP was offering; historical arguments against these accounts, demonstrating that it is impossible for Aisha to have been 9 years old at the time.
Click to expand...

Except all historical records say she was.
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Photonic said:
You have clearly missed the ENTIRE point of everyone's post. I think this thread needs to be locked.
Click to expand...

Just because I disagree with people doesn't mean I don't understand what they're saying. Trust me, I understand the arguments. They're just nonsense.
 
Photonic

Photonic

Ad astra!
Badran said:
Well, first, no, thats not the case.

Second, you may want to start reading posts before responding to them.
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I read it quite well, thank you. That doesn't change the FACT that historical records say several ages between 5 and 9.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Kilgore Trout said:
I understand everything you're saying. What I'm saying, is that regardless of whether a nine year old girl is going through puberty or not, there is no way a nine year old girl will be physically sexually mature - they will not appear as a sexually mature woman - at best they will be just starting to show sexual characteristics. And, as far as I know, studies have shown that although many girls in the developed world are now beginning to enter puberty at around 10 years old, this wasn't the case in decades and centuries past, so the likelihood of a nine year old even entering puberty was less likely in the past.
Click to expand...

Do we really have any way of knowing that?

We define sexual maturity differently than they did back then. I fully accept that it's not healthy for a nine year old girl, even if she's entering puberty and is physically able to conceive, to be having children.

Regardless, when you take into account that any development of a nine year old will necessarily be limited - sexually, physically, emotionally, and intellectually - to an adult male, they will for all intents and purposes appear as a child. Whatever time period you're talking about, healthy adults do not respond sexually to those they perceive as children.
Click to expand...

This is a logical conclusion, but the facts seem to dictate the opposite. Most men until about a few centuries ago were sexually attracted to a girl who was showing signs of sexual development, regardless of age.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Father Heathen said:
I'm wondering if they would still defend it as rigorously as they do if it didn't involve a beloved and revered religious figure.
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How about a God?

In the Mahabharata, God Surya (the Sun God) had sex with 9 year old Kunti (fully consensual), and then, being a God, restored her virginity. She gave birth to one of the main characters in the story (not sure who; I think Karna.)

Since this is a myth, I have no qualms about saying that this story, along with plenty other stories of my religion, is messed up. :eek:

Thing is I'm not actually defending a "beloved and revered religious figure", because Mohammad doesn't really do anything for me. In fact, I actually retract a statement I made earlier (not sure if it was in this thread); I now say that if I was God, then seeing that this subject would keep plenty of people from my one True Religion, I would have told him to just be celibate and avoid all this stuff. I'm defending a culture that no longer exists.
 
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