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[Badran]

I read it quite well, thank you.

Not really. Either that or for some reason you're wasting my time. Since i stated clearly that i'm talking about arguments based on historical evidence supposedly demonstrating that it is actually impossible for her to have been 9 years old.

In other words, in case you actually do try to read but fail to understand for some reason, i wasn't actually talking about accounts stating her age. But about other information around her life and incidents that happened that supposedly make those accounts inaccurate, since it would have been impossible for her to be 9 at a time of a certain incident etc... It will help if you actually read the article.

That doesn't change the FACT that historical records say several ages between 5 and 9.

For starters, you may want to read the source you quoted yourself earlier, before embarrassing yourself any further. After that, perhaps you'd like to make your posts more about what i'm actually saying.

 

[Photonic]

Not really. Either that or for some reason you're wasting my time. Since i stated clearly that i'm talking about arguments based on historical evidence supposedly demonstrating that it is actually impossible for her to have been 9 years old.

In other words, in case you actually do try to read but fail to understand for some reason, i wasn't actually talking about accounts stating her age. But about other information around her life and incidents that happened that supposedly make those accounts inaccurate, since it would have been impossible for her to be 9 at a time of a certain incident etc... It will help if you actually read the article.



For starters, you may want to read the source you quoted yourself earlier, before embarrassing yourself any further. After that, perhaps you'd like to make your posts more about what i'm actually saying.

Cute. Don't change the subject. I responded with my argument, you can either continue to insult me or support your argument.

 

[Badran]

Cute. Don't change the subject. I responded with my argument, you can either continue to insult me or support your argument.

Okay, let me try to put it differently: There is no subject.

You and i aren't talking about anything. I made a post and you replied to it with something that doesn't address what i said.

If there is anything that can count as a subject that you and i are supposedly discussing, its the subject of trying to get you to read posts before responding.

Now, please, take pity on both of us and try to follow the explanation that i'm very kindly going to offer for you once again:

1) I made a post about the lack of discussion in this thread in regards to the historical arguments addressing the historical accounts about Aisha's age.

2) You replied stating that all the accounts state that she was 9 (not actually addressing what i said, since i didn't dispute that these accounts state that she was 9, i was talking about the lack of discussion of the other arguments challenging those accounts).

3) Your pointless post was also in fact inaccurate, since not all accounts state that she was 9.

4) I tried to help you out twice so far, but you continue in your disastrous journey of posting whatever nonsense that comes to your mind without actually reading what you're responding to.

Do you intend to stop at some point or are we going to do this for a while?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

...yeah, you have no idea what I'm arguing.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I'm pretty sure that I know what you're arguing.

You're arguing that we can hate pedophilia even while recognizing that it's because we are mental slaves to our current cultural reality... yes?

 

[Photonic]

Okay, let me try to put it differently: There is no subject.

You and i aren't talking about anything. I made a post and you replied to it with something that doesn't address what i said.

If there is anything that can count as a subject that you and i are supposedly discussing, its the subject of trying to get you to read posts before responding.

Now, please, take pity on both of us and try to follow the explanation that i'm very kindly going to offer for you once again:

1) I made a post about the lack of discussion in this thread in regards to the historical arguments addressing the historical accounts about Aisha's age.

2) You replied stating that all the accounts state that she was 9 (not actually addressing what i said, since i didn't dispute that these accounts state that she was 9, i was talking about the lack of discussion of the other arguments challenging those accounts).

3) Your pointless post was also in fact inaccurate, since not all accounts state that she was 9.

4) I tried to help you out twice so far, but you continue in your disastrous journey of posting whatever nonsense that comes to your mind without actually reading what you're responding to.

Do you intend to stop at some point or are we going to do this for a while?

I think I'm done here, apparently you guys feel it's necessary to insult me with irrational comments in response. I'm hoping in the future you are more capable of communicating in a more civilized fashion.

 

[Badran]

I think I'm done here

About time.

apparently you guys feel it's necessary to insult me with irrational comments in response.

No, not really. I was just honestly explaining to you your problem here in this thread.

I'm hoping in the future you are more capable of communicating in a more civilized fashion.

I can assure you that you'll find me quite respectful once you bother to put some effort into your posts.

That said, i also hope in the future you'll be capable of admitting your mistakes rather than attempt to get away with it in this poor manner.

 

[Rakhel]

Hey Badran I have a question.

Is it possible that the age thing may not be a physical age, but a spiritual age? you know, like when someone is 32, but has only being within that particular religion for, say, 3 years. Making the person a child in understanding even if they are an adult?

 

[Riverwolf]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I'm pretty sure that I know what you're arguing.

You're arguing that we can hate pedophilia even while recognizing that it's because we are mental slaves to our current cultural reality... yes?

Wrong. We don't hate pedophilia just because it's creepy and icky in our culture.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So it's about as good as the historocity of any myth?

So there shouldn't be any problem with billions of people around the world having blind faith in what I say then. An improvement in the vast majority of cases.

Show us.

Open your eyes.

 

[Badran]

Hey Badran I have a question.

Is it possible that the age thing may not be a physical age, but a spiritual age? you know, like when someone is 32, but has only being within that particular religion for, say, 3 years. Making the person a child in understanding even if they are an adult?

Hey Rakhel, that is indeed very possible. I've read a couple of sources a while ago addressing that and suggesting that if it was her time in Islam, or her spiritual age like you put it, it would be actually more fitting since it wouldn't conflict with the other historical stuff based on which the arguments such as those in the OP's article are made.

I'm not sure of the accuracy of that. But like i said, it is certainly possible.

 

[Riverwolf]

So there shouldn't be any problem with billions of people around the world having blind faith in what I say then. An improvement in the vast majority of cases.

We all would prefer if most people would follow us instead of other people. I fail to see how you're unique in this regard.

Open your eyes.

Kind of hard to see where I'm going with my eyes closed, no? 'Twould indeed make my job a lot harder.

Your continued reluctance to explain your stance is further telling me that you have no real logical or rational grounds for your stance, and that it's based purely on emotion.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Wrong. We don't hate pedophilia just because it's creepy and icky in our culture.

OK. So you believe in a divine commandment to hate pedophilia? Where does our hatred for pedophilia or cannibalism come from, in your opinion?

 

[Riverwolf]

OK. So you believe in a divine commandment to hate pedophilia? Where does our hatred for pedophilia or cannibalism come from, in your opinion?

Cannibalism? What's cannibalism got to do with this discussion?

Anywho, pedophelia is a problem because, from what I understand, it's a side-effect of a person who's sexual maturity (or general maturity) hasn't moved past the childhood stage, which is a severe detriment to being a productive member of society.

In addition, as prepubescent children have generally not developed any sort of sexual desire, in addition to being taught from a very young age that the genitals are private, we can safely assume that there is no instance of a child consenting to sexual activity, except reluctantly, which would indicate coercion, which I believe is legally considered a form of rape. In the case of children being molested and/or raped by parents, I don't think there's ever been a case where this has been consensual, and so it's, well, rape. It's painful, traumatizing, etc to the young child's mind, and can have any number of negative psychological effects on the mind that could last throughout the individual's life. Our modern mode of thinking is that there is only one life, so a pedophile, if he acts upon his or her desires, will almost certainly ruin the child's life.

My religion has no "divine commandments", BTW.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Cannibalism? What's cannibalism got to do with this discussion?

Hey, my mind leaps (some say 'stumbles') in unexpected directions.

I was thinking of the class of 'deep cultural taboos.' Incest, cannibalism, pedophilia -- the kinds of things which make the typical good citizen's stomach turn just at hearing the words.

Anywho, pedophelia is a problem because, from what I understand, it's a side-effect of a person who's sexual maturity (or general maturity) hasn't moved past the childhood stage, which is a severe detriment to being a productive member of society.

Everything you say about pedophilia makes good sense to me, but I was trying to focus on the cultural angle. I can easily imagine a culture in which sex between an 8-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man would be viewed as morally right, maybe even a moral duty. I'll write it out if you want, but just imagine an apocalyptic, tribal remnant of the human race with a need to repopulate, fecund 8-year-olds, and a lifespan of 12 years.

In such a culture, our own moral outlook on the issue wouldn't really be relevant.That's how it seems to me, anyway. I'm making the argument that moral specifics aren't of-God or absolute. Rather, they seem to be a product of the physical world in which we find ourselves.

My religion has no "divine commandments", BTW.

I'm proud to hear it and wish more religions followed that path. Down with the prophets and the tablets of stone!

 

[Riverwolf]

Hey, my mind leaps (some say 'stumbles') in unexpected directions.

I was thinking of the class of 'deep cultural taboos.' Incest, cannibalism, pedophilia -- the kinds of things which make the typical good citizen's stomach turn just at hearing the words.

Well, incest seems to be an instinctual one, and good thing, too, since we now know such a thing can cause all kinds of mental and physical problems in offsrping.

As for cannibalism... well, to be honest, I don't know of any reason against it other than the extreme ick factor.

Everything you say about pedophilia makes good sense to me, but I was trying to focus on the cultural angle. I can easily imagine a culture in which sex between an 8-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man would be viewed as morally right, maybe even a moral duty. I'll write it out if you want, but just imagine an apocalyptic, tribal remnant of the human race with a need to repopulate, fecund 8-year-olds, and a lifespan of 12 years.

In such a culture, our own moral outlook on the issue wouldn't really be relevant.That's how it seems to me, anyway. I'm making the argument that moral specifics aren't of-God or absolute. Rather, they seem to be a product of the physical world in which we find ourselves.

I think that's very accurate.

But I did make sure to point out that, in this special case (and even with some research, teenage marriage, and thus sex, was common in ye olden times, 9 years is still young by those standards), she very well could have been in puberty, and that might have been the most important consideration at the time.

After all, when girls reach puberty, they tend to be attracted to men older than them.

I'm proud to hear it and wish more religions followed that path. Down with the prophets and the tablets of stone!

It DOES have moral guidelines, and occasionally lays down what the (natural) consequences for not following them are. And, contrary to what popular opinion may say, Hinduism DOES have a hell-concept(it's called "Naraka" or "Narakaloka"); it's just not eternal.

 

[waitasec]

wasn't it common to marry at a young age at that time?
correct me if i am wrong but wasn't the mother of jesus 13?
wonder how old joseph was...

 

[Falvlun]

Karen Armstrong: The Coherence of Her Incoherence > Hugh Fitzgerald

Sounds like the author of that article has a serious axe to grind.

Her credentials seem to depict a different story.

Armstrong has been called "a prominent and prolific religious historian"[16] and described as "arguably the most lucid, wide-ranging and consistently interesting religion writer today".[17] Juan Eduardo Campo, author of the Encyclopedia of Islam (Encyclopedia of World Religions) (2009), included Armstrong among a group of scholars whom he considered as currently conveying a "more or less objective" (as opposed to polemical) view of Islam and its origins to a wide public in Europe and North America.[18

(Karen Armstrong Wiki)

 

[Father Heathen]

Where does our hatred for pedophilia or cannibalism come from, in your opinion?

Perhaps because pedophilia victimizes the most innocent and vulnerable and causes lasting emotional and psychological damage? Seems rather obvious to me.

 

[Banner]

Well I don't care about marriage customs. Let them get married. But sex with a prepubescent girl is dangerous and disturbing. Does no one think it odd that he was physically attracted to a child? I mean...do you guys know what nine years old looks like?

 

[Riverwolf]

Well I don't care about marriage customs. Let them get married. But sex with a prepubescent girl is dangerous and disturbing. Does no one think it odd that he was physically attracted to a child? I mean...do you guys know what nine years old looks like?

Which is why I offered the possibility that she entered puberty early, ending up with the body of, say, a thirteen or fourteen year old. Marriage to girls that young was quite common in ye olde days.