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[Valjean]

What's considered outrageous varies widely by culture. There are some universals, though, I'll concede. Generally morality; right and wrong, revolve around actions which cause personal or social harm or suffering.

You'll say, of course, that "rape" causes harm and suffering, but rape is a cultural and legal construct. In a society where sexual acts between adults and young teens are considered normal affection, where there is no pain, no coercion, no physical harm, no shame, no social stigma, what constitutes the wrongness or immorality?

 

[Father Heathen]

*sigh* He is not minimizing rape. You are just having a knee jerk reaction.

How so?

You two are dense. Reread the following:

As un-PC as this may sound, SW, I think a lot of what psychologically traumatizes us is what society teaches us and expects us to be traumatized by. Why are we less traumatized by an assault or robbery than a sexual assault that leaves us neither physically nor economically harmed?

Here he seems to insinuate that rape trauma is socially conditioned, and thus exaggerated. And the last sentence? Hey, no monetary loss, so get over it, right?

 

[Father Heathen]

You'll say, of course, that "rape" causes harm and suffering, but rape is a cultural and legal construct.

Here, educate yourself. Such ignorance is rather embarrassing.

Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Riverwolf]

You two are dense. Reread the following:

Here he seems to insinuate that rape trauma is socially conditioned, and thus exaggerated. And the last sentence? Hey, no monetary loss, so get over it, right?

Where do you read "get over it" in there? Seems just as much of a stretch as the one I made last night. I'm also not sure how you equate "socially conditioned" with "exaggerated."

Rather, the point that's being made is that things which cause more measurably consistent harm are considered less traumatizing than something which causes different levels of psychological harm depending on the person and the culture.

Though I do feel the need to point out that I consider rape to be the greatest offense one can commit to a single individual.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Here, educate yourself. Such ignorance is rather embarrassing.

Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you sir, for telling the truth about rape. As a survivor of said crime, I thank you.

 

[Photonic]

You two are dense. Reread the following:



Here he seems to insinuate that rape trauma is socially conditioned, and thus exaggerated. And the last sentence? Hey, no monetary loss, so get over it, right?

Dense? Just because you only perceive one possible variation on his statement doesn't mean yours is the correct one. What right have you to call me dense for perceiving something different in his statement?

 

[Riverwolf]

Here, educate yourself. Such ignorance is rather embarrassing.

Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very nice. However, the only one we can safely say is consistent throughout all history is the physical damage. The social and psychological damage, while CERTAINLY present in all cases (don't get me wrong), will vary wildly throughout cultures, since the former is a human construct, and the latter is arguably heavily based on nurture.

 

[Photonic]

Thank you sir, for telling the truth about rape. As a survivor of said crime, I thank you.

You know, I'm sorry such a crime was perpetrated against your person, and I'm in no way diminishing how horrible the crime is, but from how I read it he was in no way doing that either. It's unfair of you to respond to him in such a manner without first considering what he said in a fair light.

 

[Valjean]

Just because something is is socially conditioned doesn't mean it's not real and powerful, FH. Rape is a genuine outrage, but what constitutes rape, and why it's an outrage, is culturally malleable. I'm not trying to excuse rapists. I'm trying to challenge people to question the concept of rape, and to understand that there may be cultures where the concept doesn't exist.

Realize there are plenty of practices we take for granted that other cultures might see as barbaric, abusive or immoral. Realize that what's considered right and wrong is not always black and white or writ in stone.
It's culture that programs us; that imparts our worldview, it tells us what to be indifferent to, insulted by, traumatized by, fearful of. It dictates how we interact with each other, and it's all artificial -- man made.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't some universal moral principles. I'm saying that some things we accept violate those principles, while others we currently condemn may not.

 

[Photonic]

Just because something is is socially conditioned doesn't mean it's not real and powerful, FH. I'm not trying to excuse rapists. I'm trying to challenge people to question the concept of rape, and to understand that there may be cultures where the concept doesn't exist.

Realize there are plenty of practices we take for granted that other cultures might see as barbaric, abusive or immoral. Realize that what's considered right and wrong is not always black and white or writ in stone.
It's culture that programs us; that imparts our worldview, it tells us what to be indifferent to, insulted by, traumatized by, fearful of. It dictates how we interact with each other, and it's all artificial -- man made.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't some universal moral principles. I'm saying that some things we accept violate those principles, while others we currently condemn may not.

For instance in Ancient Sparta it was heavily encouraged to have sexual intercourse with your student to strengthen the bonds of the relationship between teacher and student.

 

[Falvlun]

Just because something is is socially conditioned doesn't mean it's not real and powerful, FH. Rape is a genuine outrage, but what constitutes rape, and why it's an outrage, is culturally malleable. I'm not trying to excuse rapists. I'm trying to challenge people to question the concept of rape, and to understand that there may be cultures where the concept doesn't exist.

Realize there are plenty of practices we take for granted that other cultures might see as barbaric, abusive or immoral. Realize that what's considered right and wrong is not always black and white or writ in stone.
It's culture that programs us; that imparts our worldview, it tells us what to be indifferent to, insulted by, traumatized by, fearful of. It dictates how we interact with each other, and it's all artificial -- man made.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't some universal moral principles. I'm saying that some things we accept violate those principles, while others we currently condemn may not.

I'm trying, but I simply can't imagine there not being psychological trauma incurred by rape, regardless of age or culture. It is the response of society to rape that changes, eg, whether it is ignored, prosecuted, encouraged, etc, not whether it is a horrific, traumatizing experience for the person being raped. That is universal.

EDIT:
Yes, the definition of what constitutes rape within a culture may differ-- what might be considered rape here, might not be considered rape there. But my point is that the experience of being forced to have sex against one's will, will feel the same to the victim regardless of how their society may define it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Dense? Just because you only perceive one possible variation on his statement doesn't mean yours is the correct one. What right have you to call me dense for perceiving something different in his statement?

I apologize. It's a touchy subject for me.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Just because something is is socially conditioned doesn't mean it's not real and powerful, FH. Rape is a genuine outrage, but what constitutes rape, and why it's an outrage, is culturally malleable. I'm not trying to excuse rapists. I'm trying to challenge people to question the concept of rape, and to understand that there may be cultures where the concept doesn't exist.

Realize there are plenty of practices we take for granted that other cultures might see as barbaric, abusive or immoral. Realize that what's considered right and wrong is not always black and white or writ in stone.
It's culture that programs us; that imparts our worldview, it tells us what to be indifferent to, insulted by, traumatized by, fearful of. It dictates how we interact with each other, and it's all artificial -- man made.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't some universal moral principles. I'm saying that some things we accept violate those principles, while others we currently condemn may not.

I am very offended by what you have been saying. Rape is rape.

 

[Photonic]

I am very offended by what you have been saying. Rape is rape.

I'm not quite sure if you are serious anymore, honestly.

 

[Valjean]

EDIT:
Yes, the definition of what constitutes rape within a culture may differ-- what might be considered rape here, might not be considered rape there. But my point is that the experience of being forced to have sex against one's will, will feel the same to the victim regardless of how their society may define it.

I am very offended by what you have been saying. Rape is rape.

Define rape. I know legal definitions vary, but what is the essence of rape, the LCD?

 

[Falvlun]

Define rape. I know legal definitions vary, but what is the essence of rape, the LCD?

Being forced to have sex against your will.

You seem to be saying that it is our societal horror of rape that makes the experience traumatizing, and not anything intrinsic to the experience itself. Is that a fair characterization?

 

[Valjean]

But what if it's not against their will? What if kids accept sex as a normal social interaction; seek it, enjoy it, initiate it?

In our culture children may or may not wish to be cuddled, dressed or bathed at a particular time. They may not want to be sent to school and separated from their parents. Are we abusing them if we force these on them? Are they traumatized?

Is circumcision abuse? Are chores slavery? In Israeli Kibbutzim children were raised in communal baby houses by special caretakers Parents could visit only a few hours a day. Children sometimes couldn't even identify their biological parents. This treatment produced adults with the highest average level of moral development (Kohlberg levels) ever measured. Was this abuse? Was it traumatic?

If a cultural practice is physically harmless, painless, pleasant and reassuring, can it be abusive?
We're taught what is normal, what's appropriate and inappropriate. These are learned cultural features. Bizarre as a practice might seem to our sensibilities, as traumatic as it would be to us, it must be measured in cultural context and by the universals of harm, pain, suffering, &c.

Things to think about.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think attempting to rationalize or excuse pedophilia says more about the people expressing such things than it does about a vague, theoretical person and situation from the distant past.

It isn't justifying pedophilia though. It's stating that culture largely dictates much of how we think and feel about certain situations. Some people in America find a naked body to be traumatizing, yet to others it's seen as no big deal. In America an exposed breast can get a woman arrested because someone decided it was inappropriate and could potentially be harmful, while there are many indigenous tribes where breast are seen as absolutely nothing more than a source of food for the very young, and have no sexuality tied to them. There are no universal morals, especially when it comes to sex.

 

[Rakhel]

It isn't justifying pedophilia though. It's stating that culture largely dictates much of how we think and feel about certain situations. Some people in America find a naked body to be traumatizing, yet to others it's seen as no big deal.

Depends on the age of said naked person.

In America an exposed breast can get a woman arrested because someone decided it was inappropriate and could potentially be harmful, while there are many indigenous tribes where breast are seen as absolutely nothing more than a source of food for the very young, and have no sexuality tied to them. There are no universal morals, especially when it comes to sex.

again depends on age of said naked breast

 

[Valjean]

It isn't justifying pedophilia though. It's stating that culture largely dictates much of how we think and feel about certain situations. Some people in America find a naked body to be traumatizing, yet to others it's seen as no big deal. In America an exposed breast can get a woman arrested because someone decided it was inappropriate and could potentially be harmful, while there are many indigenous tribes where breast are seen as absolutely nothing more than a source of food for the very young, and have no sexuality tied to them. There are no universal morals, especially when it comes to sex.

And in some of said indigenous tribes crying babies and children are routinely calmed by fondling their genitals. Is this sexual abuse? Pedophilia? Are the babies scarred for life?