Warning! Sensitive content! Proceed with caution!

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

And in some of said African tribes crying babies are routinely quieted by fondling their genitals. Is this sexual abuse? Pedophilia? Are the babies scarred for life?

Yes. That is abuse.

 

[Valjean]

By what metric? Where's the harm?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And in some of said indigenous tribes crying babies and children are routinely calmed by fondling their genitals. Is this sexual abuse? Pedophilia? Are the babies scarred for life?

And of course our kids here routinely play doctor and give each other examinations. To them it's a natural and harmless part of being a curious child, but to many adults it's seen as a very bad, shameful, and very inappropriate action.

Yes. That is abuse.

How? All the child knows is the touch feels good and is comforting, while the adult doing is not doing it for any sexual reason but to comfort their child. Their society does not perceive the view as being sexual, and it does not put the children in distress.
Even today in America psychologist are prescribing that young children be allowed to run around naked to help establish a more positive self and body image, and that a child touching themselves and masturbating should not be discouraged. Actually during the Victorian era, it was believed masturbation was very detrimental to one's health. But now it is prescribed by doctors for various health reasons. For men it's also in their best interest to have regular ejaculations, through sex or masturbation, to improve prostate health and reduce the chance of prostate cancer. A recent study has even shown masturbation may be an effective treatment for restless leg syndrome, as the neurochemicals released during an orgasm help to calm the restless muscles.
And even at one point in time having a nocturnal ejaculation was considered a very horrible thing to have, as it meant that a demon had had sex with the victim. Today it's just an inconvenience that requires some clean up.
In our culture monogamy is viewed as appropriate while those who are polyamorous are seen as making a bad choice and damaging. And we think this even though over half of all relationships have at least one person that has had an affair, and considering today's cultures and cultures throughout history polygamous societies have been the norm.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is so not right. If people want to know if their child is gay or bisexual, they need to ask said child.

It may also help to know that what is considered sexual is dependent upon society. Our image of an attractive women is very thin, in which has made anorexia a condition in which is very rarely seen outside of industrialized nations. But in another culture women will fatten themselves up days before their wedding to look pretty on their wedding day. And if you were an ancient Chinese man you most likely would have had a foot fetish. We think breasts are sexual, while some think ankles are sexual.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

By what metric? Where's the harm?

How dare you make excuses for child abuse! It is wrong for people to do that to children!

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

And of course our kids here routinely play doctor and give each other examinations. To them it's a natural and harmless part of being a curious child, but to many adults it's seen as a very bad, shameful, and very inappropriate action.


How? All the child knows is the touch feels good and is comforting, while the adult doing is not doing it for any sexual reason but to comfort their child. Their society does not perceive the view as being sexual, and it does not put the children in distress.
Even today in America psychologist are prescribing that young children be allowed to run around naked to help establish a more positive self and body image, and that a child touching themselves and masturbating should not be discouraged. Actually during the Victorian era, it was believed masturbation was very detrimental to one's health. But now it is prescribed by doctors for various health reasons. For men it's also in their best interest to have regular ejaculations, through sex or masturbation, to improve prostate health and reduce the chance of prostate cancer. A recent study has even shown masturbation may be an effective treatment for restless leg syndrome, as the neurochemicals released during an orgasm help to calm the restless muscles.
And even at one point in time having a nocturnal ejaculation was considered a very horrible thing to have, as it meant that a demon had had sex with the victim. Today it's just an inconvenience that requires some clean up.
In our culture monogamy is viewed as appropriate while those who are polyamorous are seen as making a bad choice and damaging. And we think this even though over half of all relationships have at least one person that has had an affair, and considering today's cultures and cultures throughout history polygamous societies have been the norm.

How dare you make excuses for child abuse. No one has the right to touch a child that way. It is sexual abuse to touch a child's genitals. That messes them up for a very long time. I know this because my father did it to me when I was thirteen years old. I feel sick right now.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

I am disgusted right now. Certain members who shall not be named have made me feel like I am being molested all over again. I am so angry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am disgusted right now. Certain members who shall not be named have made me feel like I am being molested all over again. I am so angry.

We're not trying too. You were violently assaulted. What we are talking about are actions that because society permits them, do not cause distress. Culture very much influences how we think and see the world.
And there are also many psychological and ethnographic reports to verify. It's really no different than one culture seeing death as a time to mourn, while another sees it as a time to celebrate. And one burial method that was considered an honor to one culture would have been a great dishonor to another. We truly are social creatures.

 

[YmirGF]

I am disgusted right now. Certain members who shall not be named have made me feel like I am being molested all over again. I am so angry.

It would appear that you are outraged by the fact that others do not share your somewhat indignant views. I think the point you are repeatedly missing is that no one here is condoning child abuse and/or pedophilia. What many are trying to point out that different societies governed behavior by different standards than we do. In theory, we have learned from the past, however, it's not like we can change the past and the social norms of its inhabitants.

You have unwittingly stumbled onto a subject that is a sore spot for many Muslims living in this day and age. They do not want to admit that their vaunted "prophet" behaved as he did with a child, and if you look around you will find several different opinions on the matter as they desperately try to shoehorn the whole affair into the sensibilities of "modern" "Western" society - spinning his actions into a positive light.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

We're not trying too. You were violently assaulted. What we are talking about are actions that because society permits them, do not cause distress. Culture very much influences how we think and see the world.
And there are also many psychological and ethnographic reports to verify. It's really no different than one culture seeing death as a time to mourn, while another sees it as a time to celebrate. And one burial method that was considered an honor to one culture would have been a great dishonor to another. We truly are social creatures.

I am not in a good mood right now. I oppose the touching of children's genitals for any reason because it messes that child up. Maybe if you would just listen to me, you would realize that it is wrong to do that.

 

[YmirGF]

I am not in a good mood right now. I oppose the touching of children's genitals for any reason because it messes that child up. Maybe if you would just listen to me, you would realize that it is wrong to do that.

This is getting nowhere fast. Ismaila, have you undergone counseling to help ease your suffering?

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

This is getting nowhere fast. Ismaila, have you undergone counseling to help ease your suffering?

I am so tired of people supporting child abuse. I am done here. I am so done. I give up.

 

[Sunstone]

I will report anyone who supports this person. It is always wrong to touch a child's genitals. Anyone who says otherwise is a sick perverted freak.

Perhaps you should take a break from the Forum. You seem to be distraught.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Perhaps you should take a break from the Forum. You seem to be distraught.

Yeah I am going to do that. People are supporting child sexual abuse and no one seems to care. Later.

 

[Badran]

You have unwittingly stumbled onto a subject that is a sore spot for many Muslims living in this day and age. They do not want to admit that their vaunted "prophet" behaved as he did with a child, and if you look around you will find several different opinions on the matter as they desperately try to shoehorn the whole affair into the sensibilities of "modern" "Western" society - spinning his actions into a positive light.

Do you care to address the historical arguments made against the account that states that he married her at nine? Are you also able to prove that he had sex with her if he did marry her at a young age?

Or is this kind of misrepresentation all you intend to offer on the subject?

 

[Breathe]

And people ignore this fact because they would prefer to demonise a whole religion and justify their prejudice with very little facts.

Not to mention the only surviving records we have are the Hadith, some of which are fraudulent after all - so these ones could be.

I would like to think she was 18, but I am not really certain if this was the case or is modernist revisionism. Naturally it brings all sorts of questions about marrying someone so young and claiming to be ordained from God, when it would be seen as disgusting in the future.

Short of a time machine, we will never know what happened.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Not to mention the only surviving records we have are the Hadith, some of which are fraudulent after all - so these ones could be.

I would like to think she was 18, but I am not really certain if this was the case or is modernist revisionism. Naturally it brings all sorts of questions about marrying someone so young and claiming to be ordained from God, when it would be seen as disgusting in the future.

Short of a time machine, we will never know what happened.

Some say his first wife Khadijah was 40 when he married her as a young 25 year old man... but others say that she was actually 28. We will never know for sure.

 

[Breathe]

Some say his first wife Khadijah was 40 when he married her as a young 25 year old man... but others say that she was actually 28. We will never know for sure.

Yeah, exactly.
We can't know anything about his life for definite, only that he taught a message he believed, and people do now, that was brought from God, he sang the Quran, he married some females, and he died.

 

[Valjean]

It messed you up because you were enculturated to feel it was an assault, Ismaila. Your revulsion was a learned response. No-one's born with any sense of modesty or propriety.

 

[Madhuri]

It messed you up because you were enculturated to feel it was an assault, Ismaila. Your revulsion was a learned response. No-one's born with any sense of modesty or propriety.

What about when young children are raped? They experience a lot of psychological harm that extends into their distant future. Why would a five year old, for example, who knows nothing of sex, have such a negative response to rape if it is apparently a learned response?