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[Reverend Rick]

Not to mention the only surviving records we have are the Hadith, some of which are fraudulent after all - so these ones could be.

I would like to think she was 18, but I am not really certain if this was the case or is modernist revisionism. Naturally it brings all sorts of questions about marrying someone so young and claiming to be ordained from God, when it would be seen as disgusting in the future.

Short of a time machine, we will never know what happened.

Thanks for getting back on topic Odion. What we can be sure of is we are unsure how old she was and when she had sex with her husband if she ever did.

To discount a whole religion because someone is disgusted by something that more than likely did not happen over a thousand years ago is very telling.

Why not focus on what a beautiful peaceful religion Islam is and what CAN be learned from reading the Koran?

Instead, many folks want to focus on the few extremists and make unfounded attacks on billions of good people.

The western world has not been so modern for very long and still has a way to go in the future. To apply our standards on other cultures especially cultures that where ancient at the time is just plain ignorant.

 

[Sunstone]

It messed you up because you were enculturated to feel it was an assault, Ismaila. Your revulsion was a learned response. No-one's born with any sense of modesty or propriety.

Borderline Personality Disorder is strongly associated with child sexual abuse in girls. The younger the girl at the time of the abuse, the more likely she is to develop BPD. This would seem to argue against the notion that a girl's response to child sexual abuse is all a matter of her enculturation.

 

[atanu]

Borderline Personality Disorder is strongly associated with child sexual abuse in girls. The younger the girl at the time of the abuse, the more likely she is to develop BPD. This would seem to argue against the notion that a girl's response to child sexual abuse is all a matter of her enculturation.

But this finding is itself specific to culture of today, IMO.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you care to address the historical arguments made against the account that states that he married her at nine? Are you also able to prove that he had sex with her if he did marry her at a young age?

Or is this kind of misrepresentation all you intend to offer on the subject?

Badran, I don't care IF he had sex with a 9 year old girl or not. It is irrelevant to me, given cultural norms all over the world in the past. All opinions I have read that suggest she was not the age given in Sahih al-Bukhari are from recent writers. If YOU can provide opinions from hundreds of years ago that explored the theme, I would be interested to see them.

To clarify, note that I am saying, "opinions I have read". I am not saying other opinions may not exist, however the preponderance of opinion would seem to indicate no problem whatsoever with the young ages given by Sahih al-Bukhari.

Again, current opinions tend to raise the age of A'ishah and the need to do so is interesting given "modern" sensibilities on the topic of adults and children. The practice is so deeply frowned on that it is little surprise that Muslim "scholars" would want to make the old stories more palatable to "modern" readers.

If you wish to disprove my OPINION, knock yourself out. What I am trying to say is that I don't personally see why it matters. I understand why Muslim writers might want to cleanse the image of this affair, but I don't think that it is actually necessary to do so.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It was 1400+ years ago. Why is this a big deal now?

(because he founded a world religion and is the exemplar of his followers' morality)

 

[Sunstone]

But this finding is itself specific to culture of today, IMO.

A one year old girl has relatively little enculturation.

 

[atanu]

A one year old girl has relatively little enculturation.

Younger the person violated (not only sexually but in any way) more vulnerable he/she will be. And the reactions that he/she develops will as per the culture.

To take a weird example, suppose there is a culture that deifies a one year old girl for such happening. I think in this case personality disorder will be of another kind.

 

[kai]

Surely its in hadith? surely the age of consent is in Quran and or sunnah? hadith? the prophet would not do anything thats not allowed in Quran. I have never understood why this argument keeps going round and round.

 

[Father Heathen]

It messed you up because you were enculturated to feel it was an assault, Ismaila. Your revulsion was a learned response. No-one's born with any sense of modesty or propriety.

If someone were to take a baseball bat to your skull, do you only feel pain because society told you it hurt? You honestly don't understand how someone might be traumatized by being violently restrained and forcefully penetrated? You honestly think the emotional and psychological damage is simply taught by society beforehand? What do you suppose is the proper emotional response to being raped? Do you even know anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault/abuse?

Usually those who talk like you do are guilty of something. Want to clue us in on anything?

 

[Songbird]

I've never really considered how children's sexuality in other times/cultures shaped people's identities and well-being. It certainly is very harmful today. Anyone know of research of cultures where sexual behavior between adults and children is acceptable, along with evaluation of things like power structure, psychology, etc.? I'm not so interested in the tribal infant-soothing stuff, as much as specifically-defined sexuality.

When it comes to actual rape, I can't imagine that a young child's body wouldn't be injured.

 

[YmirGF]

(because he founded a world religion and is the exemplar of his followers' morality)

I might be impressed by that point if it was not for the fact that all of his other wives were older. Had he had a stable of young girls, that would be problematic.

 

[Father Heathen]

What about when young children are raped? They experience a lot of psychological harm that extends into their distant future. Why would a five year old, for example, who knows nothing of sex, have such a negative response to rape if it is apparently a learned response?

Exactly.

I'm going to post this again because the willful ignorance is getting tiresome:

Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[beenie]

Surely its in hadith? surely the age of consent is in Quran and or sunnah? hadith? the prophet would not do anything thats not allowed in Quran. I have never understood why this argument keeps going round and round.

It's debatable because there are corrupt and inaccurate Hadith. Age isn't always accurate, especially so many centuries ago...not trying to excuse anything, just pointing out that there are reasons people debate this so much.

Quite frankly, I think there are far more important issues we as Muslims have to deal with, and it's time we start working on those in the here and now, not back then.

I'm with Ymir; it doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[Father Heathen]

Would you like a rapist be sentenced this way?

Worthless superstition and custodial work?

 

[beenie]

Worthless superstition and custodial work?

Oh, and to answer the question: No.

 

[YmirGF]

Exactly.

I'm going to post this again because the willful ignorance is getting tiresome:

Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only thing I can ask, Father Heathen is have you read any of the early accounts regarding Muhammad and A'ishah? Overall, they speak of a genuine love story - of genuine reciprocated love bordering on adoration. It's hard to imagine a term like "rape" applying to such a situation. In effect, you are (and others) are screaming against a straw man.

 

[Father Heathen]

The only thing I can ask, Father Heathen is have you read any of the early accounts regarding Muhammad and A'ishah? Overall, they speak of a genuine love story - of genuine reciprocated love bordering on adoration. It's hard to imagine a term like "rape" applying to such a situation. In effect, you are (and others) are screaming against a straw man.

I wasn't addressing the muhammad + A'ishah thing. I was addressing Seyroni's assertion that rape victims (today, here and now) only feel traumatized because that's how society tells them to feel, and he insinuated that Ismaila's abuse as a child at the hands of her own father wasn't really an assault.

 

[Father Heathen]

A man commits rape because of his horn-mones err hormones.

A civilized man practices reason, restraint, and respect for other people.

 

[Valjean]

What about when young children are raped? They experience a lot of psychological harm that extends into their distant future. Why would a five year old, for example, who knows nothing of sex, have such a negative response to rape if it is apparently a learned response?

Again, I'm not talking about penetration of a five year old. You know from previous posts that I oppose anything causing fear, suffering, needless pain or harm to beings capable of experiencing these. I'm not talking about anything a child would interpret as an assault or violation.

Borderline Personality Disorder is strongly associated with child sexual abuse in girls. The younger the girl at the time of the abuse, the more likely she is to develop BPD. This would seem to argue against the notion that a girl's response to child sexual abuse is all a matter of her enculturation.

No argument here -- provided we're talking about actual abuse. If an act frightens or hurts a child it probably fits the definition. If it's painless, pleasant, affectionate and the child's never heard of the swimsuit rule perhaps it's not abuse.

 

[Falvlun]

But what if it's not against their will? What if kids accept sex as a normal social interaction; seek it, enjoy it, initiate it?

Then it's not rape.

Any time someone is forced to have sex against their will, that is rape. And I'd be willing to bet a whole lot of money, that any time that happens, it is traumatizing, regardless of culture.