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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Kyrgyzstan: [2]

The vast majority of people in Kyrgyzstan are Muslims, as 86.3% of the country's population are followers of Islam.[1] Muslims in Kyrgyzstan are generally of the Sunni branch, which entered the region during the 8th century,[2] though there are some Ahmadi Muslims.[3]

Islam and the state

While religion has not played a particularly significant role in the politics of Kyrgyzstan, more traditional elements of Islamic values have been urged despite the nation's constitution stipulating to secularism. Although the constitution forbids the intrusion of any ideology or religion in the conduct of state business, a growing number of public figures have expressed support for the promotion of Islamic traditions.[5]

As in other parts of Central Asia, non-Central Asians have been concerned about the potential of a fundamentalist Islamic revolution that would emulate Iran and Afghanistan by bringing Islam directly into the shaping of state policy, to the detriment of the non-Islamic population.

Because of sensitivity about the economic consequences of a continued outflow of Russians (brain drain), then president Askar Akayev took particular pains to reassure the non-Kyrgyz that no Islamic revolution would occur. Akayev paid public visits to Bishkek's main Russian Orthodox church and directed one million rubles from the state treasury toward that faith's church-building fund. He also appropriated funds and other support for a German cultural center.

Nevertheless, there has been support from local government to build bigger mosques and religious schools.[5] Additionally, recent bills have been proposed to outlaw abortion, and numerous attempts have been made to decriminalize polygamy and to allow officials to travel to Mecca on a hajj under a tax-free agreement.[5]

Current status[edit]

During a July 2007 interview, Bermet Akayeva, the daughter of former president Askar Akayev, stated that Islam is increasingly taking root in Kyrgyzstan.[6] She emphasized that many mosques have been built and that the Kyrgyz are increasingly devoting themselves to the religion, which she noted was "not a bad thing in itself. It keeps our society more moral, cleaner".[6] With the growth of Islamic banking, Kyrgyzstan introduced Islamic finance, as the country made available numerous Islamic financial products and services.[7]

The state recognizes two Muslim feast days as official holidays: Eid ul-Fitr (Öröz Ayt), which ends Ramadan, and Eid ul-Adha(Kurban Ayt), which commemorates Ibrahim's willingness to sacrifice his son. The country also recognizes OrthodoxChristmas as well as the traditional Persian festival of Nowruz.

Islam in Kyrgyzstan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Kyrgyzstan.

Regards
 
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Gnostic Seeker

Spiritual
Quran/Islam/Muhammad flourish most in peace as Quran is reason oriented and its teachings are simple and rational.

Why should Quran/Islam/Muhammad use force?

Regards

Not sure why you said Quran/Islam/Muhammad as though these were the same thing, but in regards to why should Islam use force- ask Abu Bakr and Uthman.
 

Harikrish

Active Member
The reason the Quran was spread by the sword was because Islam is an Arabic religion. Most of the people Islam tried to convert were illiterate and those that could read did not know Arabic. So how could people accept something they couldn't understand or read? They were forced to convert at the point of the sword.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I trust the book of allah, the quran
Hadith was authored by men and i can realize which hadith is correct and which is not, i don't need a link or someone to tell me which one is fake and which one is right.

As an outsider looking in, you seem to have the perfect "shell game" going on. Want an answer? look over here! No, no, not over there, over here!

Q: The Quran says X. A: Oh, you should be looking at the Hadith.
Q: The Hadith says Y. A: Oh, you should be looking at the Quran.

It's all very slippery, no one's in charge, there is no official anything...

So we have 1.6 billion "Muslims", but no one can define what it means to be a Muslim. Apparently we can't just read the Quran unless we're scholars of ancient Arabic? Well how many people in the world are scholars of ancient Arabic? Certainly this is only a tiny, tiny percentage of the 1.6 billion. So, how do the rest know what Islam means? They must trust their Imams right? But not all the Imams agree. Obviously Shias do not agree with Sunni...

So one simple example, we hear "Islam is a religion of Peace". Ok, how do you prove that? Hadith? Quran? History?

Here's what seems obvious:

- The Quran offers MANY violent messages
- Muhammad was a violent warrior.
- Much of Islamic history is a history of violent conquests.
- Today about 1/3 of Muslims believe violent ideas like "apostates should be punished or killed".

Once again, I'm not claiming that Christianity is any better. The difference seems to be that many Christians are willing to be honest about their religion.
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
I couldn't stop laughing at your post Ice - you shuld do stand up, it would suit you I believe :D

Now, for the reason why I laughed so much:

you've ignored everything I taught you - namely that there is a method to understanding scripture...

and you ignore that premise all the time... I don't want to call you ignorant but... ;)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Scimitar,

And I have many times congratulated you for your studious approach to understanding scripture.

And I will once again say that your approach is fantastic in theory and seldom applied in practice.

Your stance is similar to the pedestrian who follows all the traffic signals but refuses to look for cars. If one day a car doesn't stop when it's supposed to, and runs the pedestrian over, we can say that that pedestrian was "right", but he's now "dead right".
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
You are simply wrong in the fact that you think I am scholarly material - I am not. I am your average Muslim fella who says it like it is - and also visits forums.

That's all.

And there are billions like me - we ARE the majority.

I just hope you can recognise that - and not fall for all that MSM hype that has turned many a mind to mushy pea stock.

Scimi
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Abu Bakr and Uthman

They were supposed to do as per Quran.

Regards
Why not, one of them practically created it. Let me ask. How do you know Uthman got it right? Your entire theology is one man's word compiled very early on in it's final one/seven forms by another single man.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I couldn't stop laughing at your post Ice - you shuld do stand up, it would suit you I believe :D

Now, for the reason why I laughed so much:

you've ignored everything I taught you - namely that there is a method to understanding scripture...

and you ignore that premise all the time... I don't want to call you ignorant but... ;)
Well if there is recitation is the exact opposite of it and that and dogma like memorization was what the Quran was written for. Most literary critics say it is a train wreck. It obeys every principle of brain washing I can remember from the military. It is almost as if Muhammad invented or was taught the doctrines of brain washing. That does not make it untrue. It makes it suspicious and confusing to others.
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
Well if there is recitation is the exact opposite of it and that and dogma like memorization was what the Quran was written for. Most literary critics say it is a train wreck. It obeys every principle of brain washing I can remember from the military. It is almost as if Muhammad invented or was taught the doctrines of brain washing. That does not make it untrue. It makes it suspicious and confusing to others.

Most literary critics? who read Arabic? really? pfft - find me one real critic who is a scholar that can lay that claim whilst being an Arabic speaker...

see, what you've done out of your ignorance is no different to me saying "All scientific papers are ridiculous - it makes no sense to normal folk and only govt boffins can understand it, and therefore, no one in the world really knows what science is because 99.9% of people are not scientists - it's bloodt stupid wouldn't you agree 1Robin?

or how about this:

The bible doesn't exist, because its not Gods word, but mans word - so whatever it is you are following is not divine but man made - written by 4 anonymous people who didn't even have the balls to leave their last names - would you trust a book penned by an author who never left his last name? a John nobody? No, I didn't think so - yet here you are - bible bashing like a latter day saint.

Savvy?

Scimi
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You are simply wrong in the fact that you think I am scholarly material - I am not. I am your average Muslim fella who says it like it is - and also visits forums.

That's all.

And there are billions like me - we ARE the majority.

I just hope you can recognise that - and not fall for all that MSM hype that has turned many a mind to mushy pea stock.

Scimi

Hi Scimitar,

Ok, let me ask you a few questions:

Do you think that Sharia should be the law of the land?
Do you think that we should have blasphemy laws to punish people who criticize the prophet or Islam?
Do you think apostasy should be a crime?
Do you think a woman's testimony in court should be worth half that of a man's?

About 500 million Muslims think that the answers to those questions should be "yes".
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
Hi Scimitar,

Ok, let me ask you a few questions:

Sure :)

Do you think that Sharia should be the law of the land?

Where I live, I live according to shariah law - guess where that is? London, United Kingdom... we Muslims of the UK have no problems here - and London is home for me.

The law of the UK actually aligns with shariah in many aspects and so Muslims don't really have a problem here. Why would we need to implement shariah when we're already living it? :D make sense?

Do you think that we should have blasphemy laws to punish people who criticize the prophet or Islam?

No. I do not. And the reason for this is spiritual and not obvious. I believe in God, and His messengers and prophets - all of them - and I know that many humans have slandered them even in their own lifetimes - but it takes a real low life to bad mouth someone who is dead - do they need to be punished? I think they already have been, God didn't bless them with any humanity, and so - they blaspheme, slander, misinform, lie, deceive -etc etc etc... and God keeps the best record and is the best judge.

Do you think apostasy should be a crime?

It isn't a crime - not in Islam, what is a crime is treason. If someone makes a pragmatic decision to become a Muslim only so that he can leave the religion to bad mouth it and ALSO cause problems within Muslim lands by distirubing the social order of the way of life by endangering the citizens - then YES - punish him.

But simply for apostacy? NO.

This is the shariah ruling - not my opinion.

Do you think a woman's testimony in court should be worth half that of a man's?

A woman's testimony in court is not half that of a man's... both man and woman have to produce the same number of witnesses - Islamic law does not go by a single persons testimony EVER... so much misinformation that you'e been fed - gosh, I'm surprised you didn't know this stuff - it's basic knowledge and is taught to children in schools these days.

About 500 million Muslims think that the answers to those questions should be "yes".

500 million? pfft - as if any govt agency in the world has ever conducted such a pointless census survey - please don't post falsified facts again.

Scimi
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Most literary critics? who read Arabic? really? pfft - find me one real critic who is a scholar that can lay that claim whilst being an Arabic speaker...
Not that understanding Arabic is required, but I would think most non-Islamic scholars would also agree. I have several on file. Which claim do you want them to make. I mentioned several but only "the train wreck" thing was attached to any scholar. Is that what you want a single example of plus all the unnecessary criteria you piled on for no reason?

see, what you've done out of your ignorance is no different to me saying "All scientific papers are ridiculous - it makes no sense to normal folk and only govt boffins can understand it, and therefore, no one in the world really knows what science is because 99.9% of people are not scientists - it's bloodt stupid wouldn't you agree 1Robin?
I would emphatically disagree. My education is in science (math specifically) so I would not agree to single thing you said. I don't even get most of it. What does "it is blood stupid" even mean?

or how about this:

The bible doesn't exist, because its not Gods word, but mans word - so whatever it is you are following is not divine but man made - written by 4 anonymous people who didn't even have the balls to leave their last names - would you trust a book penned by an author who never left his last name? a John nobody? No, I didn't think so - yet here you are - bible bashing like a latter day saint.
Well that is a far better argument (though it is horrible) from the rest of this weird post.

Mostly, no.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Sure :)

Where I live, I live according to shariah law - guess where that is? London, United Kingdom... we Muslims of the UK have no problems here - and London is home for me.

The law of the UK actually aligns with shariah in many aspects and so Muslims don't really have a problem here. Why would we need to implement shariah when we're already living it? :D make sense?

No. I do not. And the reason for this is spiritual and not obvious. I believe in God, and His messengers and prophets - all of them - and I know that many humans have slandered them even in their own lifetimes - but it takes a real low life to bad mouth someone who is dead - do they need to be punished? I think they already have been, God didn't bless them with any humanity, and so - they blaspheme, slander, misinform, lie, deceive -etc etc etc... and God keeps the best record and is the best judge.

It isn't a crime - not in Islam, what is a crime is treason. If someone makes a pragmatic decision to become a Muslim only so that he can leave the religion to bad mouth it and ALSO cause problems within Muslim lands by distirubing the social order of the way of life by endangering the citizens - then YES - punish him.

But simply for apostacy? NO.

This is the shariah ruling - not my opinion.

A woman's testimony in court is not half that of a man's... both man and woman have to produce the same number of witnesses - Islamic law does not go by a single persons testimony EVER... so much misinformation that you'e been fed - gosh, I'm surprised you didn't know this stuff - it's basic knowledge and is taught to children in schools these days.

500 million? pfft - as if any govt agency in the world has ever conducted such a pointless census survey - please don't post falsified facts again.

Scimi

Scimitar, After all this time, you think I would make such claims without evidence?

Take some time to look over this report / poll of 38,000 Muslims - worldwide, and then do some simple math...

The World

I'm being VERY CONSERVATIVE when I use the number 500 million.
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
Not that understanding Arabic is required,

yes it is.

The Quran is really only the Quran in Arabic - everything else is just translations, and as any copy writer will tell you, translating work makes mince pies out of the original. Thus, the original will always be the "goto" book, and if that book is in a language alien to yours, and you need to know the proper context of the content - you need to also learn the language. Period.

but I would think most non-Islamic scholars would also agree. I have several on file. Which claim do you want them to make. I mentioned several but only "the train wreck" thing was attached to any scholar. Is that what you want a single example of plus all the unnecessary criteria you piled on for no reason?

You claim you have several - produce just one!

Here - I will produce one - a Non Arab speaking Jewish Agnostic Scholar who is a female - savvy? enter Lesley Hazleton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LULcstrlNiI btw, she's speaking at TEDx - yeah - TEDx, ya better recognise!!!

And she has even written a book on Muhammad (pbuh) - is recognised as a worldly figure, highly educated, well spoken and rational with the ability to define contexts - something the members here often overlook in their ignorance.

I would emphatically disagree. My education is in science (math specifically) so I would not agree to single thing you said. I don't even get most of it. What does "it is blood stupid" even mean?

Well that is a far better argument (though it is horrible) from the rest of this weird post.

Mostly, no.

Emphatically disagree? don't empathise on my behalf - I like science, it proves God for me in a very spiritual way :D so there !!!
 
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Scimitar

Eschatologist
I'm being VERY CONSERVATIVE when I use the number 500 million.

So if I do a survey - record it on film, asking Muslims the same questions, unedited - in one shot - and proved the opposite - where would that leave you?

I am an hobby film maker, and I did have a very popular channel on YT but closed it last year - and guess what? I've still got all my RAW files and know adobe after effects and premier like the back of my hand.

as for your link - did you not notice that most of those countries are majority Muslim ones? what's wrong with them governing themselves the way they want? Are you a bigoted individual who seeks to make the world a carbon copy of his own thought processes? You realise who else was like that right?

Hitler.

Scimi
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Scimitar,

If you have 38,000 Muslims on film from 39 countries that would be quite a film.

The countries in which those Muslims were polled represent probably over 90% of where all the Muslims in the world live. Would you agree with that?

So, back to the earlier point...

Conservatively speaking, 500 MILLION Muslims want Sharia law, think apostasy should be a crime, think we should have blasphemy laws, and treat women as mentally weaker then men.

Do these opinions agree with yours? I think you've indicated that they do not. So should I value your, individual, scholarly opinions about what Islam is, or should I value the opinions of 500 million people? ;)
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
Scimitar,

If you have 38,000 Muslims on film from 39 countries that would be quite a film.

I was aiming at a microcosm example - but yes, it would quite the film if 38,000 were in it - I'm not sure where we'd get all that "film" from though :D

moving on

The countries in which those Muslims were polled represent probably over 90% of where all the Muslims in the world live. Would you agree with that?

So, back to the earlier point...

Conservatively speaking, 500 MILLION Muslims want Sharia law, think apostasy should be a crime, think we should have blasphemy laws, and treat women as mentally weaker then men.

Do these opinions agree with yours? I think you've indicated that they do not. So should I value your, individual, scholarly opinions about what Islam is, or should I value the opinions of 500 million people? ;)

Let me humour your warped idea that just because one third of the Muslim populus want these things - that the other two thirds of the Muslims which constitute the majority - dare somehow ignored??? Where's is your logic?

Even when i humour you - your logic doesn't work!

Now, let me do it my way.

If Muslims living in a majority Muslim country want shariah law - in your opinion why is it wrong for them to have it? If they choose the method of governance themselves - why is it wrong? because it's against your world view? and if so, isn't that bigoted of you to think that way? Does that not remind you of Hitler? who wanted the world fashioned in his own image?

I make you question your own logic - yet you never want to try and answer those questions - do you prefer to remain ignorant? is that your thing?

Scimi
 
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