Was Islam spread by the sword?

[Harikrish]

You are simply wrong in the fact that you think I am scholarly material - I am not. I am your average Muslim fella who says it like it is - and also visits forums.

That's all.

And there are billions like me - we ARE the majority.

I just hope you can recognise that - and not fall for all that MSM hype that has turned many a mind to mushy pea stock.

Scimi

There are 800 million illiterate Muslims out of 1.4 billion Muslims, less than 14 percent of the educated Muslims can read Arabic the language the Quran is written in. So the majority of Muslims have not read the Quran. This is why they have remained peaceful. Because the ones that have managed to read the Quran with the 169 jihad verses are actively beheading Muslims and infidels.

 

[FearGod]

This is very true. Arab culture and science was much more advanced at certain points in history, especially considering the unrest that was taking place in Europe throughout the middle ages.

That being said, your argument about zero is a little silly...

Also, if you're making this argument about Western Culture vs. Middle East, then you're making a big mistake. Historically, the advent of knowledge, regardless of where it came from, is a human accomplishment - not a Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu accomplishment. This entire thread is about flaws in the spread of a religion. It's not an attack on the religion itself - but on the ideals that it's followers hold about the supposed perfection of its prophet and the flaws in the holy book that they regard as perfect.

It isn't my argument but it is Mahasn's, he tried to refute that Muslims did any thing good to the world and that is stupid thing to believe in,IMHO

My question to him and to you too about number zero

If number zero did exist for so long in India then what prevented it from reaching the Persians, Romans and Arabs in the 6th century, why number zero was just known to Europe in the 11th century by the Muslim scientists.

I think fools may believe anything they read whereas intelligents investigate to reach for the truth.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Most literary critics? who read Arabic? really? pfft - find me one real critic who is a scholar that can lay that claim whilst being an Arabic speaker...

Reza Aslan - he's even Muslim

 

[Scimitar]

Well if there is recitation is the exact opposite of it and that and dogma like memorization was what the Quran was written for. Most literary critics say it is a train wreck. It obeys every principle of brain washing I can remember from the military. It is almost as if Muhammad invented or was taught the doctrines of brain washing. That does not make it untrue. It makes it suspicious and confusing to others.

I asked for just one Muslim scholar who claimed that the Quran was a literary trainwreck - you gave me:

Reza Aslan - he's even Muslim

Reza Aslan - I'm familiar with him - And he has not claimed that the Quran is a literary trainwreck. Find another please.

Previously, I presented to you the flip side of your arguments by giving you Lesley Hazleton's (agnostic jewish scholar) view on the Quran - I received no response from that so I will post it again in order to hear your responses to it.

I'm humouring you guys, afford me the same please. With respect and no further delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g

Scimi

 

[icehorse]

Hi Scimitar,

I listened (twice) to Lesley Hazleton. I agree with all of her factual claims, and she's clearly seeking peace when she gives her subjective impressions. No problem with that, and she mirrors what you say. She mentions, (and in parens I respond):

- it's easy to quote the Quran "out of context" (yes, and 500 million do!)
- it "reprises" the Bible (some would say plagiarizes the Bible)
- it's rhythmic and meant to be heard (no argument, I've heard parts sung - it's nice!)
- flexible but ambiguous - only god knows (but people act badly!)

Scimitar, the world would be a far better place if you and Lesley could change the minds of the 500 million!

Now, you have three of my questions to answer:

1 - Hindu genocide
2 - The 500 million who disagree with you
3 - Sharia and human rights

 

[FearGod]

Then why didn't he do that. that would have been a good act from the part of God. Every one would have been happy.

Because God created us with free will, Angels were made with no free will, so they just obey and execute God's orders.

This doesn't make sense. God himself making reasons to get angry and torture his own creations , something he himself could have prevented.

We aren't the creator of the souls to know what is behind each soul and why God have to punish some and let the others to enjoy.

Imagine that there are 2 roads, one is to the right and the other to the left, then you chose the road going to the left, but while you were driving you found signs which says "this road is dangerous and if you keep on you'll die", the signs says that you'll see some monkeys throwing stones at you and then you'll see a river and still you have chances to move to the right before going to a place that you can't find a scape.

So it is us who choose our ways and no one to be blamed except ourselves.

 

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimitar,

I listened (twice) to Lesley Hazleton. I agree with all of her factual claims, and she's clearly seeking peace when she gives her subjective impressions. No problem with that, and she mirrors what you say. She mentions, (and in parens I respond):

- it's easy to quote the Quran "out of context" (yes, and 500 million do!)

don't you mean a minority do? Look - even if I humour your statement - its still only 1/3rd of the Muslim populus. And of that (so called third - sampled from only 38,000 Muslims).

- it "reprises" the Bible (some would say plagiarizes the Bible)

I've heard the bible in arabic - there is no comparison my friend. As for the stories, they align but with differences - and when you look to the books which were not included in the cannon, such as the book of James, the borhter of Jesus pbuh - is identical in theology to Islam - yet removed from the canon.... The Quran is a divine revelation that corrects the errors of the scribes and reforms the idea of monotheism to humanity - the bible on the other hand doesn't compare, it's trinitarian in content, pagan in propagation and contradictory in narratives. And it's not Muslims who are saying this, but Christian Scholars from across 50 denominations of Christianity. With so many versions of the bible - and only one of the Quran, how can you claim plagiarisation when the bible is so unsure of itself that it has to be constantly revised?

As for the revisionist argument - that would put your "plagiarist" claim in the bin too.

- it's rhythmic and meant to be heard (no argument, I've heard parts sung - it's nice!)

Yes, the words "Al Quran" literally mean "The Recital" - as lesley mentioned, "it begs to be heard - it's rhythmic cadence envelopes you in its hypnotically familiar territory - and why not?"

- flexible but ambiguous - only god knows (but people act badly!)

Yes, Allah tells us in the Quran - that those who seek perversity will twist the meanings of the Quran to suit their motivations - but for them is a great punishment in store in the hereafter, and Allah alone knows the true meanings of the ambiguous verses.

Scimitar, the world would be a far better place if you and Lesley could change the minds of the 500 million!

I don't think it's meant to be - to be really honest with you Ice, the idea of faith is personal - and if it isn't tested, what value does it have? think about it.

Now, you have three of my questions to answer:

1 - Hindu genocide
2 - The 500 million who disagree with you
3 - Sharia and human rights

1 - Hindu Genocide - although I do not discount that Hindu's were killed by Muslims in India - 80 million? really? the real figure is more like 17,000 when the Moghuls took Delhi - up til that point, the expansion of Islam into Indian territory was hardly violent. If anythhing, where I come from - the Gujurat state - attributes many of its aquaducts, man made rivers, lakes, farming communities, town and cities etc to the Moghuls who gave more to the people than what they took - this was quite possibly the first evangelical Muslim movement in history... but that was cut short when the Maharaja of Delhi sent his troops to kill the messenger from the Moghuls... that was an act of war.

2 - The 500 million who disagree with me? You mean the 38,000 Muslims who live in majority Muslim countries that want shariah law? what about them? They are still a minority, and hardly violent or anything - simple folk with little or no education - and quite possibly only unilingual - unlike me, who speaks 4 languages fluently and a further 2 well enough - this allows me to expand my literary horizons - unlike unilingual people who have to rely on translations - and you know how i feel about those.

3 - Shariah and Human rights - my favourite subject - I am convinced that shariah is the divine law which gives the rights to the people - it is fairer to the women than the men, the women have more rights in Islam than men do - slavery was abolished in Arabia due to the commandments of the Quran and the Sunnah - and as you have already learnt by listening to Lesley - the Quran tells the Muslims that those who pay the ransom to free a slave are amongst the favoured of Allah. And many more like these - if you but study the book with tafsir.

Could it be, bro Ice - that the conversion rates from the west to the religion of Islam are happening because westerners are actually studying the book in context? - the answer is yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCAHEgb611E and thousands upon thousand more on YT.

Scimi

 

[Flankerl]

My question to him and to you too about number zero

If number zero did exist for so long in India then what prevented it from reaching the Persians, Romans and Arabs in the 6th century, why number zero was just known to Europe in the 11th century by the Muslim scientists.

I think fools may believe anything they read whereas intelligents investigate to reach for the truth.

Your last sentence is funny because the zero as a real unit only came into existense some 1100 years ago. By that time only Muslim countries shared a border with India and therefore Muslims learned sooner about the Zero than Christians in Europe.

You would have known that if you had investigated it.

 

[Scimitar]

So the Aryans (indo europeans) who travelled from India to settle Europe and central Asia had no idea of the concept of 0?

Or if they did - they preferred to adopt the greco-roman numericals instead?

Or if they didn't - they just didn't care for it coz they were barbaric?

Which one?

Scimi

 

[Flankerl]

So the Aryans (indo europeans) who travelled from India to settle Europe and central Asia had no idea of the concept of 0?

The migrations of the Proto Indo Europeans began 4900 years before the 0 was first used as a real number in India.

Also the Proto Indo Europeans weren't from India. India was probably settled by the "Indos" of the Indo-Aryans after they split from each other.
This was about 200 years after the Indus Valley Civilization broke apart.


So yeah these people had no concept of a 0.

 

[Scimitar]

yes they did - it meant nothing. pfft hahaha, anyway, I'm pleased someone else knows their history here (not) - keep it up. Btw, the migrations were between 1500 and 200 bc. So the concept of zero would have already been with the aryans at that time.

 

[FearGod]

Your last sentence is funny because the zero as a real unit only came into existense some 1100 years ago. By that time only Muslim countries shared a border with India and therefore Muslims learned sooner about the Zero than Christians in Europe.

You would have known that if you had investigated it.

What a stupid comment ?

Romans were in the region since Jesus era and zero wasn't yet known or invented, relation existed long time ago between the east and the west, you need to educate yourself before posting a silly reply.

Silk Road - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Harikrish]

So what did the Indians or Arabs do with the concept of 0? Did they create an advance system of mathematics that rival other systems?

 

[Scimitar]

no no, it was just the fact that the concept of zero did not exist in European nations - the Muslims borrowed the concept from Indians and implemented it heavily with Arabic numerals - simplifying the number system - this system was later employed by the west and the numerals in use today are actually the Arabic numerals in lieu of Roman ones which are just... long.

Further - to teach Flankerl some history, he may find that the Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5th–2nd century BC) used binary numbers in the form of short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code. He and his contemporary Indian scholars used the Sanskrit word śūnya to refer to zero or void. This is how the concept of Zero first appeared in India - roughly during the final migrations of the Aryan peoples.

Scimi

EDIT: once Islam had mastered the numerical ordering system, India also adopted the same via the use of Arabic numerals of 1 - 9 (yep the very same we use today)... what we find here is a cross cultural mathematical exchange of sorts - where both nations mutually helped each other to master the numerical ordering system - now that's really cool !

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. - Quran 49:13

 

[Flankerl]

What a stupid comment ?

Romans were in the region since Jesus era and zero wasn't yet known or invented, relation existed long time ago between the east and the west, you need to educate yourself before posting a silly reply.

Silk Road - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Congratulations you just explained why neither the Romans nor the Sassanids knew about the zero.
It was first used as a numeral some 300 years after your precious Prophet rode around the desert killing the Jews of Khaybar.

yes they did - it meant nothing. pfft hahaha, anyway, I'm pleased someone else knows their history here (not) - keep it up. Btw, the migrations were between 1500 and 200 bc. So the concept of zero would have already been with the aryans at that time.

Do tell.
Indo-European migrations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh and btw even the Out of India theory is said to have taken place some millennia before the Zero was first used as a real numeral.

Further - to teach Flankerl some history, he may find that the Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5th–2nd century BC) used binary numbers in the form of short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code. He and his contemporary Indian scholars used the Sanskrit word śūnya to refer to zero or void. This is how the concept of Zero first appeared in India - roughly during the final migrations of the Aryan peoples.

You know if you are going to quote Wikipedia quote correctly.

"The concept of zero as a number and not merely a symbol or an empty space for separation is attributed to India, where, by the 9th century AD, practical calculations were carried out using zero, which was treated like any other number, even in case of division."

So actually what i wrote. Don't cry.

Also "he"?

once Islam had mastered the numerical ordering system, India also adopted the same via the use of Arabic numerals of 1 - 9 (yep the very same we use today)... what we find here is a cross cultural mathematical exchange of sorts - where both nations mutually helped each other to master the numerical ordering system - now that's really cool !

So how come the 10 Hindu numerals existed before the 9 Arabic numerals?

 

[FearGod]

So what did the Indians or Arabs do with the concept of 0? Did they create an advance system of mathematics that rival other systems?

The number 0 even looks simple but it is amazing, Romans used letters to indicate numbers and hence calculation wouldn't be as we know it today.

Roman Numerals

 

[morphesium]

Let me thank you for the reply.

Because God created us with free will, Angels were made with no free will, so they just obey and execute God's orders.

Now that God has created us with free will, He could have embedded some religious knowledge so people wont fight over this. if embedding religious knowledge interferes with free will and is the reason why he himself didn't do that, then why is it religion doing that - it should be against the will of God.

I am leaving the Angels part - I just don't know and I am not sure of any of those.

We aren't the creator of the souls to know what is behind each soul and why God have to punish some and let the others to enjoy.

Imagine that there are 2 roads, one is to the right and the other to the left, then you chose the road going to the left, but while you were driving you found signs which says "this road is dangerous and if you keep on you'll die", the signs says that you'll see some monkeys throwing stones at you and then you'll see a river and still you have chances to move to the right before going to a place that you can't find a scape.

So it is us who choose our ways and no one to be blamed except ourselves.

Now, if it is God that gave us free will, then people will choose all sort of ways - they will have their own reasons though but it is still with Gods intentions. Depriving of their free will (through religion) so that people will choose only one way is not according to Gods intentions -can it be.

Now one should be given proper education though , but he should have the freedom to choose.

Thank you.

 

[Scimitar]

Oh and btw even the Out of India theory is said to have taken place some millennia before the Zero was first used as a real numeral.

Are you dense ? I already told you that the Aryans had the concept of 0 circa 200BC - and those Aryans travelled did they not? So what are you waxing on about? Our of India theory is still hotly debated amongst historical circles - it's just too far back in time to accurately understand, and we rely on the traditions of sedentary peoples as well as the DNA evidence which leaves a gap of around 3000 years unaccounted for. So once again - you'd be a little bit out of your depth with the OUT OF INDIA explanation.

You know if you are going to quote Wikipedia quote correctly.

"The concept of zero as a number and not merely a symbol or an empty space for separation is attributed to India, where, by the 9th century AD, practical calculations were carried out using zero, which was treated like any other number, even in case of division."

CUE THE MUSLIMS - who were in India at THAT TIME - sheesh.

So actually what i wrote. Don't cry.

Can't help it, i'm very good looking.

Also "he"?

who?

So how come the 10 Hindu numerals existed before the 9 Arabic numerals?

Arabs had numerals, just no concept of zero - surely you knew that?

Scimi

 

[FearGod]

I wonder what kind of Algebra that was used by the Greek and the ancient world without using the number 0 in their equations,history sucks.

 

[Scimitar]

Or the fact that Algorhythms were discovered by Al Khwarismi - and if it wasn't for him, we'd not be here on this forum today - computers and networks rely on certain algorithms - without which, making a computer would be impossible.

The very fact that every one here is able to post their two cents worth is down to the genius of Al Khwarismi. infact - the very word Algoryhthm is the greco-romanised version of Al Khwarismi - Algoritmi.

Scimi