Was Islam spread by the sword?

[FearGod]

Let me thank you for the reply.

Now that God has created us with free will, He could have embedded some religious knowledge so people wont fight over this. if embedding religious knowledge interferes with free will and is the reason why he himself didn't do that, then why is it religion doing that - it should be against the will of God.

I am leaving the Angels part - I just don't know and I am not sure of any of those

You're welcome

That question was asked by the Angels and God's answer was that he knows what they don't know for the purpose of sending Humans to earth even though of the fact that they'll do some harm on earth.

And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.(2:30)

Now, if it is God that gave us free will, then people will choose all sort of ways - they will have their own reasons though but it is still with Gods intentions. Depriving of their free will (through religion) so that people will choose only one way is not according to Gods intentions -can it be.

Now one should be given proper education though , but he should have the freedom to choose.

Thank you.

Each soul is tested and God will guide the good ones to his path while mislead the bad ones as mentioned in the quran.

Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his breast narrow, tight, as if he were climbing to heaven. So God lays abomination upon those who believe not.(6:125)

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Mongolia: [1]

Islam in Mongolia is practiced by approximately 5% of the population.[1] It is practised by the ethnic Kazakhs of Bayan-Ölgii Province (88.7% of total aimag population) and Khovd Province (11.5% of total aimag population, living primarily in the Khovd city, Khovd sum and Buyant sum) aimag in western Mongolia. In addition, a number of small Kazakh communities can be found in various cities and towns spread throughout the country.

History

The earliest evidence of Islam in Mongolia is dated to 1254, when the Franciscan William of Rubruck visited the court of the great khan Mongka at Karakorum. He celebrated Easter at a Nestorian Christian church but also noted seven temples of the "idolators" (could Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist temples), and two mosques. Therefore, historians date the arrival of Islam to Mongolia to between 1222 and 1254.

Islam also gained the notice of the Mongols, after Genghis Khan had conqueredAfghanistan. In 1222 he, on his way back to Mongolia, visited Bukhara in Transoxiana. It was believed he inquired about Islam, and subsequently approved of Muslim tenets except the Hajj, considering it unnecessary. Nevertheless, he continued his worship of Tengri as his ancestors had done.

Genghis Khan's grandson Berke converted to Islam due to the efforts of Saif ud-Din Dervish, a dervish from Khorazm, thus Berke became one of the first Mongol rulers to convert. Other Mongol leaders owed their conversion to Islam due to the influence of a Muslim wife.[2] Later, it was the Mamluk ruler Baibars who played an important role in bringing many Golden Horde Mongols to Islam.

Baibars developed strong ties with the Mongols of the Golden Horde and took steps for the Golden Horde Mongols to travel to Egypt. The arrival of the Golden Horde Mongols to Egypt resulted in a significant number of Mongols accepting Islam.[2] By AD 1330s three of the four major khanates of the Mongol Empire had become Muslim.[3]These were the Golden Horde, Hulagu's Ulus and Chagatai's Ulus. The Yuan Empire also embraced Muslim peoples such as the Persians.

Although the court of the Yuan Empire adopted Tibetan Buddhism as the official religion, the majority of the ordinaryMongols, especially those who continued living in Mongolia proper remained Shamanists. After the decline of the Yuan Dynasty, Shamanism once again became the dominant religion. To varying degrees, political and economic relations withMuslim nations such as Moghulistan continued.

The Muslim Kazakhs began to settle in the Jungaria and Altai regions since the late nineteenth century. The majority of these Kazakhs were the Kerei and Naiman clans, many of them escaping persecution from Czarist Russia. When Bogdo Khanassumed power in Mongolia on December 29, 1911, the Kazakhs in Xinjian and Altai regions sought patronage of the restored Khanate. The Government of Bogdo Khan admitted them and allowed them to settle in the western region of Mongolia's Kobdo territory.

Islam in Mongolia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Mongolia.

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Are you dense ?

Aren't you a cutiepie.

I already told you that the Aryans had the concept of 0 circa 200BC - and those Aryans travelled did they not? So what are you waxing on about? Our of India theory is still hotly debated amongst historical circles - it's just too far back in time to accurately understand, and we rely on the traditions of sedentary peoples as well as the DNA evidence which leaves a gap of around 3000 years unaccounted for. So once again - you'd be a little bit out of your depth with the OUT OF INDIA explanation.

Okay again: The Indo-European Migrations were long before 200BC. Its really not my fault.
Whether the "Aryans" had the concept of 0(which has nothing to do with its mathematical use, or so says the article) is of no concern because they did not travel to Europe.

CUE THE MUSLIMS - who were in India at THAT TIME - sheesh.

Yes of course.

Arabs had numerals, just no concept of zero - surely you knew that?

Which is why i wrote 9 numbers.



Thanks for reminding me why i usually ignore your posts.

 

[1robin]

I wonder what kind of Algebra that was used by the Greek and the ancient world without using the number 0 in their equations,history sucks.

Well even without the number zero, the Egyptians used algebra (which by the way is a name, the name is Arabic not the math) to build structures more impressive than Islam ever has even with the number zero and far more advanced tools in it's entire history. History is cool.

 

[FearGod]

Well even without the number zero, the Egyptians used algebra (which by the way is a name, the name is Arabic not the math) to build structures more impressive than Islam ever has even with the number zero and far more advanced tools in it's entire history. History is cool.

Give us an examples for the equations that were used by the Egyptians without the use of number 0 in their mathematical equations.

 

[1robin]

Or the fact that Algorhythms were discovered by Al Khwarismi - and if it wasn't for him, we'd not be here on this forum today - computers and networks rely on certain algorithms - without which, making a computer would be impossible.

The very fact that every one here is able to post their two cents worth is down to the genius of Al Khwarismi. infact - the very word Algoryhthm is the greco-romanised version of Al Khwarismi - Algoritmi.

Scimi

My degree is in math and I work for a defense contractor on F-15 test systems that use algorithms by the millions. In 20 years of training and 8 years in college not a single Muslim has ever been mentioned in any step from arithmetic through partial differential equations. My point is not that Muslims have never contributed to science or math. I am well aware of their long gone era of medical, math, and science advancements. My point is that even if Islam had never done any science of math (medicine is a little different) western science would have suffered little. Look at any list of great scientific thinkers of the past 2000 years. I will be absolutely dominated by Christians plus a few Jewish scholars with maybe one or two Muslims. Not one Muslim was ever mentioned in a single class I had from kindergarten all the way through statics and dynamics. They did some good stuff but Islam is so starved for the rare occasions where they have produced something special that they way over estimate Islam's impact on modern science.


I am the guy who said many textual scholars say the Quran is a train wreck. For some reason you said I had to supply one that also spoke Arabic (there is nothing special about Arabic, it is just another Semitic based language, unlike Koine Greek which is among if not the most descriptive language that ever existed and which the NT is written in). Yet I would never suggest anyone must speak Greek to properly examine the Bible. That's an absurd attempt at death by a thousand paper cuts. Dr. White is a peer reviewed and published textual scholar who knows more about Semitic languages and the Quran than you ever will. Any debate or lecture by him on the Qurans literary value will have the full explanation of why it is not even a good book much less a miracle in any way.

On what planet is arranging Chapters by length an attempt to produce a very clear text?

Try and respond without so much personal commentary and maybe I won't find the discussion unjustifiable. Arguing for "the religion of peace" using thinly veiled hostility is counterproductive.

 

[1robin]

Give us an examples for the equations that were used by the Egyptians without the use of number 0 in their mathematical equations.

Aha problems involve finding unknown quantities (referred to as Aha) if the sum of the quantity and part(s) of it are given. The Rhind Mathematical Papyrus also contains four of these type of problems. Problems 1, 19, and 25 of the Moscow Papyrus are Aha problems. For instance problem 19 asks one to calculate a quantity taken 1 and ½ times and added to 4 to make 10.[1] In other words, in modern mathematical notation we are asked to solve the linear equation: 3/2 x X + 4 = 10.

Solving these Aha problems involves a technique called method of false position. The technique is also called the method of false assumption. The scribe would substitute an initial guess of the answer into the problem. The solution using the false assumption would be proportional to the actual answer, and the scribe would find the answer by using this ratio.[1]

Pefsu problems[edit]

Many of the practical problems contained in the Moscow Mathematical Papyrus are pefsu problems: 10 of the 25 problems. A pefsu measures the strength of the beer made from a heqat of grain
pefsu=number loaves of bread (or jugs of beer)number of heqats of grain.
Egyptian algebra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Here is a whole list.
Egyptian Algebra - Mathematicians of the African Diaspora

By the way which fact are you denying.

1. They used algebra and or geometry?
2. Or that they did not have 0?


The pyramids line up to within arc seconds of a degree with the poles. Islam has never ever built a building that precise. Heck almost no one ever has.

 

[icehorse]

don't you mean a minority do? Look - even if I humour your statement - its still only 1/3rd of the Muslim populus. And of that (so called third - sampled from only 38,000 Muslims).

I've heard the bible in arabic - there is no comparison my friend. As for the stories, they align but with differences - and when you look to the books which were not included in the cannon, such as the book of James, the borhter of Jesus pbuh - is identical in theology to Islam - yet removed from the canon.... The Quran is a divine revelation that corrects the errors of the scribes and reforms the idea of monotheism to humanity - the bible on the other hand doesn't compare, it's trinitarian in content, pagan in propagation and contradictory in narratives. And it's not Muslims who are saying this, but Christian Scholars from across 50 denominations of Christianity. With so many versions of the bible - and only one of the Quran, how can you claim plagiarisation when the bible is so unsure of itself that it has to be constantly revised?

As for the revisionist argument - that would put your "plagiarist" claim in the bin too.

Yes, the words "Al Quran" literally mean "The Recital" - as lesley mentioned, "it begs to be heard - it's rhythmic cadence envelopes you in its hypnotically familiar territory - and why not?"

Yes, Allah tells us in the Quran - that those who seek perversity will twist the meanings of the Quran to suit their motivations - but for them is a great punishment in store in the hereafter, and Allah alone knows the true meanings of the ambiguous verses.

I don't think it's meant to be - to be really honest with you Ice, the idea of faith is personal - and if it isn't tested, what value does it have? think about it.

1 - Hindu Genocide - although I do not discount that Hindu's were killed by Muslims in India - 80 million? really? the real figure is more like 17,000 when the Moghuls took Delhi - up til that point, the expansion of Islam into Indian territory was hardly violent. If anythhing, where I come from - the Gujurat state - attributes many of its aquaducts, man made rivers, lakes, farming communities, town and cities etc to the Moghuls who gave more to the people than what they took - this was quite possibly the first evangelical Muslim movement in history... but that was cut short when the Maharaja of Delhi sent his troops to kill the messenger from the Moghuls... that was an act of war.

2 - The 500 million who disagree with me? You mean the 38,000 Muslims who live in majority Muslim countries that want shariah law? what about them? They are still a minority, and hardly violent or anything - simple folk with little or no education - and quite possibly only unilingual - unlike me, who speaks 4 languages fluently and a further 2 well enough - this allows me to expand my literary horizons - unlike unilingual people who have to rely on translations - and you know how i feel about those.

3 - Shariah and Human rights - my favourite subject - I am convinced that shariah is the divine law which gives the rights to the people - it is fairer to the women than the men, the women have more rights in Islam than men do - slavery was abolished in Arabia due to the commandments of the Quran and the Sunnah - and as you have already learnt by listening to Lesley - the Quran tells the Muslims that those who pay the ransom to free a slave are amongst the favoured of Allah. And many more like these - if you but study the book with tafsir.

Could it be, bro Ice - that the conversion rates from the west to the religion of Islam are happening because westerners are actually studying the book in context? - the answer is yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCAHEgb611E and thousands upon thousand more on YT.

Scimi

Scimitar,

I think we could have interesting discussions, and we might all learn something. But a post like this makes me think that your intentions are NOT to learn, but to obfuscate. Too bad.

 

[1robin]

Scimitar,

I think we could have interesting discussions, and we might all learn something. But a post like this makes me think that your intentions are NOT to learn, but to obfuscate. Too bad.

Add thinly veiled hostility, and I concur 100%.

 

[Scimitar]

Scimitar,

I think we could have interesting discussions, and we might all learn something. But a post like this makes me think that your intentions are NOT to learn, but to obfuscate. Too bad.

So wait, I answer your questions, and you claim the above? really? come on fella - at least be honest and on topic instead of making this about you and me. That is weak. I had higher hopes with you - maybe I was the one who was wrong - but I won't let that stop me - because things change - nothing is static here.

So - anymore questions Ice? 1robin?

Scimi

 

[1robin]

So wait, I answer your questions, and you claim the above? really? come on fella - at least be honest and on topic instead of making this about you and me. That is weak. I had higher hopes with you - maybe I was the one who was wrong - but I won't let that stop me - because things change - nothing is static here.

So - anymore questions Ice? 1robin?

Scimi

You never answer post #2066 nor does it seem this one had any impact on you.

However I will clear the balances and start fresh and see if we can eliminate passive aggressive posting.

 

[icehorse]

So wait, I answer your questions, and you claim the above? really? come on fella - at least be honest and on topic instead of making this about you and me. That is weak. I had higher hopes with you - maybe I was the one who was wrong - but I won't let that stop me - because things change - nothing is static here.

So - anymore questions Ice? 1robin?

Scimi

Scimitar,

When you question a poll of 38,000 people you're calling into question basic principles of math and science. If that's your intention, just say so.

When you deride the Bible it's a weak form of "fallacy fallacy".

When you focus on only one conflict between Hindus and Muslims, you introduce a form of "strawman fallacy".

When you declare that you have it correct and 500 million Muslims have it wrong... I don't even know where to go with that one...

When you say what you say about slavery, this strikes me as the closing argument in a "gish gallop".

So, yes Scimitar, you give answers, but they're logically inconsistent, filled with fallacies, and in sum, seem to be intended to obfuscate.

 

[FearGod]

Aha problems involve finding unknown quantities (referred to as Aha) if the sum of the quantity and part(s) of it are given. The Rhind Mathematical Papyrus also contains four of these type of problems. Problems 1, 19, and 25 of the Moscow Papyrus are Aha problems. For instance problem 19 asks one to calculate a quantity taken 1 and ½ times and added to 4 to make 10.[1] In other words, in modern mathematical notation we are asked to solve the linear equation: 3/2 x X + 4 = 10.

Solving these Aha problems involves a technique called method of false position. The technique is also called the method of false assumption. The scribe would substitute an initial guess of the answer into the problem. The solution using the false assumption would be proportional to the actual answer, and the scribe would find the answer by using this ratio.[1]

Pefsu problems[edit]

Many of the practical problems contained in the Moscow Mathematical Papyrus are pefsu problems: 10 of the 25 problems. A pefsu measures the strength of the beer made from a heqat of grain
pefsu=number loaves of bread (or jugs of beer)number of heqats of grain.
Egyptian algebra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Here is a whole list.
Egyptian Algebra - Mathematicians of the African Diaspora

By the way which fact are you denying.

1. They used algebra and or geometry?
2. Or that they did not have 0?


The pyramids line up to within arc seconds of a degree with the poles. Islam has never ever built a building that precise. Heck almost no one ever has.

What numbers the Egyptians used to solve this simple equation

235 x (A +120) = 56400

 

[morphesium]

Welcome back.

Unfortunately, I am having some trouble in understanding some part of what you have typed and its relevance to my previous post.

... And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.(2:30)

========== ============ ================ ========= ============== =========== =========== ============ ================ ========= ============== ============

Each soul is tested and God will guide the good ones to his path while mislead the bad ones as mentioned in the quran.

Isn't Religion interpreting freewill ?
For example (just an example, not a real case scenario):- If Ones conscious ( or sense of what is right which I believe is the God sent message to oneself and neglecting it is the cause of all problems.) says smoking is not good, you have to stop it, it is not right. some will quit smoking, some will not.
So God can test which one smokes and which one abstains from smoking.
But what if religion interprets this and says Nobody should smoke, cut down all tobacco plants and people wont be exposed even to a single cigarette and there would be people that hasn't even seen a cigarette. How can God test one then?
What if there is a cure for some particular disease that tobacco can bring? Moreover, every people on earth has a different thinking, are in different situations. So are ones Conscious, it can also be different and God will test him in a different way.

Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his breast narrow, tight, as if he were climbing to heaven. So God lays abomination upon those who believe not.(6:125)

Please forgive me if this hurts you in anyway. Why Islam, how is it different from other religions.

Me too was born in a particular religion but my reasoning made me think the other way (perhaps God made me think that way) and this is what I believe now. Everyone was born with Gods message and if one feels the same, one should live accordingly. So God can test us or command us or whatsoever according to his liking. Be you. Be me. And when I die, let my religion die along with me.

Thank you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Mongolia: [2]

Islam in Mongolia is practiced by approximately 5% of the population.[1] It is practised by the ethnic Kazakhs of Bayan-Ölgii Province (88.7% of total aimag population) and Khovd Province (11.5% of total aimag population, living primarily in the Khovd city, Khovd sum and Buyant sum) aimag in western Mongolia. In addition, a number of small Kazakh communities can be found in various cities and towns spread throughout the country.

History

Genghis Khan's grandson Berke converted to Islam due to the efforts of Saif ud-Din Dervish, a dervish from Khorazm, thus Berke became one of the first Mongol rulers to convert. Other Mongol leaders owed their conversion to Islam due to the influence of a Muslim wife.[2] Later, it was the Mamluk ruler Baibars who played an important role in bringing many Golden Horde Mongols to Islam.

Communist era[edit]

Bayan-Ölgii aimag was established as part of the administrative reforms of the Mongolian People's Republic in 1940. As a result of historically high birth rates, the Muslim population in Mongolia increased between 1956-1989. However, there was a decline in the Muslim population [4][5] in 1990-1993 due to the large wave of repatriation of ethnic Kazakhs (so called oralmans) to Kazakhstan following the break-up of the Soviet Union. Islam is freely practised in the country since Mongolia became a democracy in 1990.

Today[edit]

Islam is currently practiced predominately in the western portion of the country as well as in Mongolia's capital. Some of the major population centers with a significant Muslim presence include Ulan Bator (90% in khoroo #4 of Nalaikh düüreg[6]), Tövand Selenge aimags, Erdenet, Darkhan, Bulgan, Sharyngol (17.1% of population total[7]) and Berkh cities.

Notable Mongol Muslims[edit]

• Berke - grandson of Genghis Khan and leader of the Golden Horde who was the first Mongol ruler to establish Islam in a Mongol state.[10]
• Mahmud Ghazan - seventh ruler of the Ilkhanate.[11]
• Muhammad Khodabandeh - formerly a Christian, he was the eighth Ilkhanid dynasty ruler in Iran from 1304 to 1316.[12]
• Mubarak Shah - head of the ulus of the Chagatai Khanate (1252–1260, March-September 1266).[13]
• Nawrūz (Mongol emir) - a convert to Islam;[14] he played an important role in the politics of the Mongol Ilkhanate.
• Negudar - Mongol general and noyan[15]
• Nogai Khan - Mongol general and great-grandson of Genghis Khan.[16]
• Tarmashirin - Khan of the Chagatai Khanate following Duwa Timur.
• Tekuder - Mongol leader of the Ilkhan empire who was formerly a Nestorian Christian.[17]
• Tuda Mengu - Mongol leader of the Golden Horde[18]
• Tughlugh Timur - the Khan of Moghulistan.[19]
• Öljei Temür, also known as Buyanshir Khan after he converted to Islam while he stayed at the court of Timur in Samarkand

Islam in Mongolia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Mongolia.

Regards

 

[Nakosis]

Well even without the number zero, the Egyptians used algebra (which by the way is a name, the name is Arabic not the math) to build structures more impressive than Islam ever has even with the number zero and far more advanced tools in it's entire history. History is cool.

Interesting, not that I'm very good at math, but I see math as a language. It can be use to describe reality. I suppose in a material sense "0" doesn't exist. It denotes an absence of something and really, what need is there to describe "nothing".

India I could understand, Hindu belief in the reality of Sunya. A non-materialistic concept of no thing.

 

[FearGod]

Welcome back.

Unfortunately, I am having some trouble in understanding some part of what you have typed and its relevance to my previous post.




========== ============ ================ ========= ============== =========== =========== ============ ================ ========= ============== ============


Isn't Religion interpreting freewill ?
For example (just an example, not a real case scenario):- If Ones conscious ( or sense of what is right which I believe is the God sent message to oneself and neglecting it is the cause of all problems.) says smoking is not good, you have to stop it, it is not right. some will quit smoking, some will not.
So God can test which one smokes and which one abstains from smoking.
But what if religion interprets this and says Nobody should smoke, cut down all tobacco plants and people wont be exposed even to a single cigarette and there would be people that hasn't even seen a cigarette. How can God test one then?
What if there is a cure for some particular disease that tobacco can bring? Moreover, every people on earth has a different thinking, are in different situations. So are ones Conscious, it can also be different and God will test him in a different way.

I didn't understand your example of cigarette as a test and the free will and how is that related to God's test and our free will.

For example God says killing a soul is a wrong deed that he doesn't forgive,then should God not created any souls so we can't find any soul to kill, just sayin

Please forgive me if this hurts you in anyway. Why Islam, how is it different from other religions.

Me too was born in a particular religion but my reasoning made me think the other way (perhaps God made me think that way) and this is what I believe now. Everyone was born with Gods message and if one feels the same, one should live accordingly. So God can test us or command us or whatsoever according to his liking. Be you. Be me. And when I die, let my religion die along with me.

Thank you.

I choose what make sense to me, give me one religion that you think is the right one and not Islam and i'll see if it makes sense to me or not, try to give me one that you think makes more sense than Islam.

 

[icehorse]

Interesting, not that I'm very good at math, but I see math as a language. It can be use to describe reality. I suppose in a material sense "0" doesn't exist. It denotes an absence of something and really, what need is there to describe "nothing".

India I could understand, Hindu belief in the reality of Sunya. A non-materialistic concept of no thing.

Math is an absract, logical way of thinking about things. As soon as you want to do something with engineering, or architecture or science and so on, you need math, and math absolutely needs zero

 

[1robin]

What numbers the Egyptians used to solve this simple equation

235 x (A +120) = 56400

Is this a joke? Did I show that your questions were unjustified so you changed subjects. I have no idea what answer an Egyptian would give. I am not Egyptian and I live 5000 years and 4000 miles from them. What is the point?

 

[1robin]

Interesting, not that I'm very good at math, but I see math as a language. It can be use to describe reality. I suppose in a material sense "0" doesn't exist. It denotes an absence of something and really, what need is there to describe "nothing".

That is exactly right. Juts as words spell out concepts so do numbers and symbols. Math is the language we use to decode the rationality in the universe. The number zero is not all that important but the concept can be.

For example that reason Einstein said we can't go faster than light was because his equation left a zero in the denominator which is undefined and therefore not possible. 0 is an abstract concept not a real thing.

India I could understand, Hindu belief in the reality of Sunya. A non-materialistic concept of no thing.

Nothing is very very simple. It is the absence of being. Or as the Greeks said, it is what rocks dream about. nothing is literally no-thing.