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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Sudan: [3]

Islam is the largest religion in Sudan, and Muslims have dominated national government institutions since independence in 1956. According to UNDP Sudan, the Muslim population is 97%,[1] including numerous Arab and non-Arab groups.

Ethnicity of the Muslim population in Sudan

Arabs [1]
In the early 1990s, the largest single category among the Muslim peoples of Sudan consisted of those speaking some form of Arabic. Excluded were a small number of Arabic speakers originating in Egypt and professing Coptic Christianity. In 1983 the people identified as Arabs constituted nearly 70% of the total Sudanesepopulation and nearly 30% of the population of the northern provinces. In some of these provinces (Khartoum, Ash Shamali, Al Awsat), they were overwhelmingly dominant.

In others (Kurdufan, Darfur), they were less so but made up a majority. By 1990 Ash Sharqi State was probably largely Arab. It should be emphasized, however, that the acquisition of Arabic as a second language did not necessarily lead to the assumption of Arab identity.

Despite common language, religion, and self-identification, Arabs did not constitute a cohesive group. They were highly differentiated in their modes of livelihood and ways of life. Besides the major distinction dividing Arabs into sedentary and nomadic, there was an old tradition that assigned them to tribes, each said to have a common ancestor.

The two largest of the supratribal categories in the early 1990s were the Juhayna and the Jaali (or Jaalayin). The Juhayna category consisted of tribes considerednomadic, although many had become fully settled. The Jaali encompassed the riverine, sedentary peoples from Dunqulah to just north of Khartoum and members of this group who had moved elsewhere. Some of its groups had become sedentary only in the twentieth century.

Sudanese saw the Jaali as primarily indigenous peoples who were gradually arabized. Sudanese thought the Juhayna were less mixed, although some Juhayna groups had become more diverse by absorbing indigenous peoples. The Baqqara, for example, who moved south and west and encountered the Negroid peoples of those areas were scarcely to be distinguished from them.
A third supratribal division of some importance was the Kawahla, consisting of thirteen tribes of varying size. Of these, eight tribes and segments of the other five were found north and west of Khartoum.

There people were more heavily dependent on pastoralism than were the segments of the other five tribes, who lived on either side of the White Nile from south of Khartoum to north of Kosti. This cluster of five groups (for practical purposes independent tribes) exhibited a considerable degree of self-awareness and cohesion in some circumstances, although that had not precluded intertribal competition for local power and status.

Islam in Sudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Sudan.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Paar provide a source a number of pages ago which used Muslim sources to confirm that there were forced conversions. He didn't bother reading the source beyond his confirmation bias so missed it.

I don't think so.

I try to quote a source in full even if a portion of it differs with my viewpoint; the objections, if any, could be explained or discussed.

Regards
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I don't think so.

I try to quote a source in full even if a portion of it differs with my viewpoint; the objections, if any, could be explained or discussed.

Regards

Actually a book you link for one example showed there was no forced conversion. However in the same book in the chapter in India, which you do not read but I did, it states there were forced conversion in India. This is what happens when you quote-mine a source but do not read the whole book. I linked the page direct'y awhile ago. However as you do not read anything you link you missed it. You refuted your own argument with a source.

https://archive.org/stream/preachingofislam00arno#page/260/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/preachingofislam00arno#page/254/mode/2up

This is source you linked. Your own source refuted this whole thread.
 
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mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
The prophet sent letters to spread the message in peaceful way, but once the ruler prevent the message from reaching his people then the prophet fought to spread the message and not for any thing else, it started from homeland when they fought him as to prevent him from spreading the message till it reached all parts of the world at that time, so the message reached by peace and by force but the religion itself was never forced on people.

Hope the puzzle is solved.

First of all-thanks for the recognition
But a diplomatic Word and not an explicit recognition
But an important step
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Our friend tries to say that the war was between Muhammad of his obstinate to just any Arabs
This means the camouflage theme
The fact that Muhammad used the power sword with his people and with other communities
Mohammed a murderer of his people, the Arabs, the sword and the spoils
But there are very, very important issue
And he uses verses from the Qur'an to justify fighting
And when he died, Mohammed
These verses present in the wars of apostasy
These verses were fighting
Present at the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Persia
Therefore the continuity of revelation and the continuity of the sword spread associated with Qur'anic verses
Therefore we cannot separate Islam from the sword, violence
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
I've been with the sword means other
Intimidation by imposing jizyah subjugated peoples
And encouragement
I mean women and loot
Two means of coaxing the high level
The fact that the Qur'an is the Satanic industry
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
With peaceful measures, not with sword.

Regards

Sometimes force were needed not to force people to Islam but to spread the message of Islam, for example the prophet himself had fought with the sword because the disbelievers didn't want people to convert to Islam, he was tempted first but all their attempts failed and next was declaring the war against him to stop the message from spreading.

[youtube]Eixcetku9LQ[/youtube]
Decision of The Prophet Mohammad PBUH - YouTube
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't agree with you.
No war was fought for spreading Islam in the world by Muhammad.

Regards
What we do know is that as soon as Muhammad was given solders to settle tribal disagreements he employed them instead for revenge, raiding caravans, and fighting pretty much everyone who did not agree with him.

So the only question is what motivated him. At least spreading the faith would be quasi-honorable. I can prove it was not defense in countless cases. So they are out. Nothing but pure tyranny and greed are left.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Well the rarity of truth I see did not even survive the night. Which on is true?

1. The prophet commanded the believers to convey the message after his death.
2. then the prophet fought to spread the message

Both are your words. I imagine both are true.

The prophet fought those who fought him, his mission was to convey the message.

They tried to stop him by force and the prophet with the believers won and the message conveyed to east and west.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Sudan: [4]

Islam is the largest religion in Sudan, and Muslims have dominated national government institutions since independence in 1956. According to UNDP Sudan, the Muslim population is 97%,[1] including numerous Arab and non-Arab groups.

Ethnicity of the Muslim population in Sudan

Arabs [2]

The ashraf, who claim descent from the Prophet Muhammad, were found in small groups (lineages) scattered among other Arabs. Most of these lineages had been founded by religious teachers or their descendants. A very small group of descendants of the Funj Dynasty also claimed descent from the Umayyads, an early dynasty of caliphs based in present-day Syria.

That claim had little foundation, but it served to separate from other Arabs a small group living on or between the White Nile and the Blue Nile. The term ashraf was also applied in Sudan to the family of Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah, known as the Mahdi (1848–85).

The division into Jaali and Juhayna did not appear to have significant effect on the ways in which individuals and groups regarded each other. Conflicts between tribes generally arose from competition for good grazing land, or from the competing demands of nomadic and sedentary tribes on the environment. Among nomadic and recently sedentary Arabs, tribes and subtribes competed for local power.

Membership in tribal and subtribal units is generally by birth, but individuals and groups may also join these units by adoption, clientship, or a decision to live and behave in a certain way. For example, when a sedentary Fur becomes a cattle nomad, he is perceived as a Baqqara. Eventually the descendants of such newcomers are regarded as belonging to the group by birth.

Tribal and subtribal units divide the Arab ethnic category vertically, but other distinctions cut across Arab society and its tribal and subtribal components horizontally by differences of social status and power. Still another division is that of religious

Islam in Sudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Sudan.

Regards
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The prophet fought those who fought him, his mission was to convey the message.

They tried to stop him by force and the prophet with the believers won and the message conveyed to east and west.
He fought everyone around him. Women, poets, writers, caravan drivers, Jews who would not obey he threaten them with death in signing. I have many times listed his first major battles. I do not think a single one was self defense and even in his words some were his idea alone. Claiming he was always defending anything is the biggest historical joke there is.


Lets start at the beginning. His first battle was against a caravan or would have been. He found his ambush was outnumbered and he called it off. Now did Allah order this and Muhammad fail or did Muhammad order it and chicken out.

The first battle he chose to fight in was Badr. IN his companions words it was solely because that years caravans were rich. Muhammad was specifically asked if it was Allah's command or his own. He responded it was his.

That is the first two. We can go to number 3 and so if you want but so far no one has even hinted at anything defensive for the first two.

You gained a point of credibility in your former position but lost ten when you instantly contradicted your self.

I admit and condemn Christianity's stupid wars most of the time. Until you can be historically honest you will never be credible.

BTW He was poisoned by the wife of a man he killed and Islam instantly fell into civil war. How is that a win? Christianity is the only faith that spread to every nation on earth to any significant degree and exploded in history without drawing a sword. Now that is a win.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Sudan: [4]

Islam is the largest religion in Sudan, and Muslims have dominated national government institutions since independence in 1956. According to UNDP Sudan, the Muslim population is 97%,[1] including numerous Arab and non-Arab groups.

Ethnicity of the Muslim population in Sudan

Arabs [2]

The ashraf, who claim descent from the Prophet Muhammad, were found in small groups (lineages) scattered among other Arabs. Most of these lineages had been founded by religious teachers or their descendants. A very small group of descendants of the Funj Dynasty also claimed descent from the Umayyads, an early dynasty of caliphs based in present-day Syria.

That claim had little foundation, but it served to separate from other Arabs a small group living on or between the White Nile and the Blue Nile. The term ashraf was also applied in Sudan to the family of Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah, known as the Mahdi (1848–85).

The division into Jaali and Juhayna did not appear to have significant effect on the ways in which individuals and groups regarded each other. Conflicts between tribes generally arose from competition for good grazing land, or from the competing demands of nomadic and sedentary tribes on the environment. Among nomadic and recently sedentary Arabs, tribes and subtribes competed for local power.

Membership in tribal and subtribal units is generally by birth, but individuals and groups may also join these units by adoption, clientship, or a decision to live and behave in a certain way. For example, when a sedentary Fur becomes a cattle nomad, he is perceived as a Baqqara. Eventually the descendants of such newcomers are regarded as belonging to the group by birth.

Tribal and subtribal units divide the Arab ethnic category vertically, but other distinctions cut across Arab society and its tribal and subtribal components horizontally by differences of social status and power. Still another division is that of religious

Islam in Sudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Sudan.

Regards
What do think this rolodex of places few ever heard of given in spite of the countless counter examples is going to demonstrate? This is starting to look like copy and paste propaganda. I think you could be a good debater if you can be original.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I have had several Muslims confirm that the following process is considered valid by many Muslims. (To be fair, I've also been told by some Muslims that this is inaccurate.)

1 - A Muslim army enters a non-Islamic region.
2 - The Muslims generals offer the people in the region the chance to convert to Islam.
3 - If the people refuse, the Muslim generals offer them the chance to become second class dhimmis, ruled by the Muslims.
4 - If the people still refuse, they are considered to be "attacking Islam" and the Islamic army can attack the non-Muslims and call it a "defensive action".
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I have had several Muslims confirm that the following process is considered valid by many Muslims. (To be fair, I've also been told by some Muslims that this is inaccurate.)

1 - A Muslim army enters a non-Islamic region.
2 - The Muslims generals offer the people in the region the chance to convert to Islam.
3 - If the people refuse, the Muslim generals offer them the chance to become second class dhimmis, ruled by the Muslims.
4 - If the people still refuse, they are considered to be "attacking Islam" and the Islamic army can attack the non-Muslims and call it a "defensive action".
That is definitely what they do in countless places plus a whole host of other injustices and it is very close to doctrine. dhimmis can't vote, must pay higher taxes, can't serve in the army, etc... There are examples of Islamic rulers who prohibited conversion because of tax revenue but that is probably not doctrine.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
He fought everyone around him. Women, poets, writers, caravan drivers, Jews who would not obey he threaten them with death in signing. I have many times listed his first major battles. I do not think a single one was self defense and even in his words some were his idea alone. Claiming he was always defending anything is the biggest historical joke there is.

Just a myth.

Lets start at the beginning. His first battle was against a caravan or would have been. He found his ambush was outnumbered and he called it off. Now did Allah order this and Muhammad fail or did Muhammad order it and chicken out.

Just stories

The first battle he chose to fight in was Badr. IN his companions words it was solely because that years caravans were rich. Muhammad was specifically asked if it was Allah's command or his own. He responded it was his.

The prophet actually wasn't poor and his wife was the richest woman in quraish,she was the first woman to accept Islam since she knows him very well as a very sincere man.

You only like to pick up the bad false stories about the prophet while you reject the stories which prove him as a prophet.

That is the first two. We can go to number 3 and so if you want but so far no one has even hinted at anything defensive for the first two.

Defending what ? the stories

You gained a point of credibility in your former position but lost ten when you instantly contradicted your self.

You only don't like to hear the good stories about the prophet, so nothing will change your mind about him.

I admit and condemn Christianity's stupid wars most of the time. Until you can be historically honest you will never be credible.

Only the stupid wars, what about believing about the sacrifice of Jesus by killing himself on the cross to pay for the sins of the evil ones,then crying with pain for his father in heaven which is him.

Mark 15:34
And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").


BTW He was poisoned by the wife of a man he killed and Islam instantly fell into civil war. How is that a win? Christianity is the only faith that spread to every nation on earth to any significant degree and exploded in history without drawing a sword. Now that is a win.

I believe that Christianity and atheism is the same thing, but in Christianity you can do any sin and believe on Christ for salvation whereas atheists may do sins without believing about salvation by a man called Jesus.
 
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