What Age Is Acceptable To Identify As The Opposite Sex?

[Kathryn]

no you really didn't

Actually I did. I gave the World Health Organization's definition of gender affirming care and gave the EO from Walz's Governor of Minnesota website and several other links.

 

[Argentbear]

That all sounds good in theory (although the DSM is a bit suspect).

But again, WPATH has been seen to admit that they often do NOT have informed consent, and there is no good evidence that these hormones improve mental health outcomes.

From WPATH Standards of Care


"Informed Consent
Feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy may lead to irreversible physical changes. Thus, hormone therapy should be provided only to those who are legally able to provide informed consent. This includes people who have been declared by a court to be emancipated minors, incarcerated people, and cognitively impaired people who are considered competent to participate in their medical decisions (see also Bockting et al., 2006). Providers should document in the medical record that comprehensive information has been provided and understood about all relevant aspects of the hormone therapy," pg40

"Obtaining informed consent for hormone therapy is an important task of providers to ensure that patients understand the psychological and physical benefits and risks of hormone therapy, as well as its psychosocial implications." pg41

"For adolescents, the assessment phase should also be used to inform youth and their families about the possibilities and limitations of different treatments. This is necessary for informed consent" pg 21

"Criteria for puberty suppressing hormones... The adolescent has given informed consent and, particularly when the adolescent has not
reached the age of medical consent, the parents or other caretakers or guardians have consented to the treatment and are involved in supporting the adolescent throughout the treatment process. " pg 25

"clients should be assessed for their ability to provide educated and informed consent for medical treatments" pg31

"Documentation ... 5. A statement about the fact that informed consent has been obtained from the patient;" pg 32

"Initiation of hormone therapy may be undertaken after a psychosocial assessment has been
conducted and informed consent has been obtained by a qualified health professional, as outlined
in section VII" pg 40

 

[Argentbear]

That all sounds good in theory (although the DSM is a bit suspect).

But again, WPATH has been seen to admit that they often do NOT have informed consent, and there is no good evidence that these hormones improve mental health outcomes.

Repeating false information won't make it true

Laura E. Kuper 2020Body Dissatisfaction and Mental Health Outcomes of Youth on Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy :"Youth reported large improvements in body dissatisfaction (P < .001), small to moderate improvements in self-report of depressive symptoms (P < .001), and small improvements in total anxiety symptoms (P < .01). No demographic or treatment-related characteristics were associated with change over time. Lifetime and follow-up rates were 81% and 39% for suicidal ideation, 16% and 4% for suicide attempt, and 52% and 18% for NSSI, respectively. (lifetime follow up rates were defined as 81% of youths how did not receive hormone therapy reported suicidal ideation at some point compared to 39% who did have hormone therapy)

JL Turban 2020 Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation "those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation."


David J. Inwards-Breland 2022 Mental Health Outcomes and Receipt of Gender-affirming Care "a 60% decrease in depression (aOR 0.40; 95% CI: 0.17-0.95) and a 73% decrease in suicidality"

Kellan E Baker 2021 Hormone Therapy, Mental Health, and Quality of Life Among Transgender People: A Systematic Review
"RCT found an improvement of approximately 5.5 points on a 10-point measure of life satisfaction" "the proportion of transgender men and transgender women (n = 107) showing symptoms of depression decreased from 42% to 22% over 12 months of treatment"

and literally dozens of similar studies

 

[Argentbear]

I already gave you the Executive Order directly from Walz's Governor of Minnesota website.

and no where in this does it say the state can perform sex change operations on kids.

 

[Kathryn]

and no where in this does it say the state can perform sex change operations on kids.

I also gave the World Health Organization's definition of gender affirming care. Which the EO states repeatedly as fine.

 

[icehorse]

"Informed Consent
Feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy may lead to irreversible physical changes. Thus, hormone therapy should be provided only to those who are legally able to provide informed consent.

A couple of points here:

1 - If you're going to use WPATH as a basis for your arguments, then stop saying these protocols are reversible.

2 - The "WPATH files", created by a whistle-blower, prove that WPATH does not practice what it prescribes. Top WPATH officials are captured on video or in writing admitting that they often proceed WITHOUT informed consent.

3 - Everything we know about childhood cognitive development tells us that kids cannot possibly understand the far reaching implications of social transitioning or hormones or blockers or surgeries.

 

[PureX]

A human of any age is capable of determining their own gender identity.

However, I don't think any human under the age 21 years should be allowed to begin physically altering their bodies to serve that determination.

No chemicals, and no surgeries until they are full adults. And even then a full psyche assessment should be mandatory.

 

[Kfox]

I will ask you to only as objective, empirical and real to justify all of your behaviour, life choices and values. No subjective as that is not real. Only the objective is real. So now answer according to your standard.

Okay; the reason I don't like getting those kind of answers from a link, is because the link will (for example) define a non-binary person as someone who doesn't identify as either man nor woman. But when I ask how are they different from a man or a woman, I can't get such an answer from a link, but if I am talking to an individual, they can give me an answer.

 

[Kfox]

A justication is a subjective idea in the thoughts of a person and have no strictly objective, real or emperical referents. I would say that justifications and why people do as they do are imaginary according to your subjective imaginary rules for justification.

It doesn't matter if it's imaginary, as long as it sounds reasonable to the people involved in the conversation.

 

[Kfox]

Why would anyone need to justify the recognized definition of a word?

If the details of the word were agreed upon by everyone, justification would not be necessary. With this word, I don't think the details of the word are agreed upon

 

[Kfox]

Yeah, that you subjectively choose to use biology as a standard is not emprical, real and objective. You have made a subjective evaluation and that is your double standard.
You subjectively believe in an objective standard as relevant, but that you subjectively believe in it, is what you won't accept other people do.

Biology is empirical and objective. The avenue I used to choose biology as my standard is irrelevant.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay; the reason I don't like getting those kind of answers from a link, is because the link will (for example) define a non-binary person as someone who doesn't identify as either man nor woman. But when I ask how are they different from a man or a woman, I can't get such an answer from a link, but if I am talking to anknowei individual, they can give me an answer.

I don't accept that you don't like. That is subjective, not real, not objective and not empircal. Only objective facts and science. Nothing subjective that can't be known as a fact with science.

 

[Kfox]

objectively not all of these things are associated with an XY chromosome pair

What did I mention that is not?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Biology is empirical and objective. The avenue I used to choose biology as my standard is irrelevant.

That is irrelavent is not objective, real and empirical. Now you are subjective again. Only facts, not your subjective thoughts. When will you learn that to be objective???

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It doesn't matter if it's imaginary, as long as it sounds reasonable to the people involved in the conversation.

Sounds reasonable is subjective. You are doing it again, only objective facts with science. That same with that it matters or not. That is also subjective.
By that standard non-binary is correct as it doesn't matter if it's imaginary, as long as it sounds reasonable to the people involved in the conversation.
See, you admit that you are as subjective as other humans and that whether gender is real or not, depends on:

It doesn't matter if it's imaginary, as long as it sounds reasonable to the people involved in the conversation.

 

[Argentbear]

I also gave the World Health Organization's definition of gender affirming care. Which the EO states repeatedly as fine.

That is the definition but no where does it say that chopping off body parts of children is appropriate or even being done.

 

[Kathryn]

A human of any age is capable of determining their own gender identity.

However, I don't think any human under the age 21 years should be allowed to begin physically altering their bodies to serve that determination.

No chemicals, and no surgeries until they are full adults. And even then a full psyche assessment should be mandatory.

I agree with this.

 

[Kathryn]

That is the definition but no where does it say that chopping off body parts of children is appropriate or even being done.

The EO says it's appropriate, which is why I also included it. I don't know if it's being done or not in Minnesota.

 

[Argentbear]

A couple of points here:

1 - If you're going to use WPATH as a basis for your arguments, then stop saying these protocols are reversible.

Reversible? Who ever said ANYTHING like that?

2 - The "WPATH files", created by a whistle-blower, prove that WPATH does not practice what it prescribes. Top WPATH officials are captured on video or in writing admitting that they often proceed WITHOUT informed consent.

I woudl ask for some sort of evidence to back up this claim but you woudl call such a request an "interrogation" and refuse to provide any evidence...again

3 - Everything we know about childhood cognitive development tells us that kids cannot possibly understand the far reaching implications of social transitioning or hormones or blockers or surgeries.

and what does that have to do with the false claims you made about informed consent?

 

[Argentbear]

A human of any age is capable of determining their own gender identity.

However, I don't think any human under the age 21 years should be allowed to begin physically altering their bodies to serve that determination.

No chemicals, and no surgeries until they are full adults. And even then a full psyche assessment should be mandatory.

Even with the overwhelming evidence of improved mental health and long term life satisfaction shown to be granted by puberty blockers?