What And, More Importantly, Why?

[Riverwolf]

and where did they come from? dont delay the question again and again. we didnt come from nothing. something must have created us. a being with no beginning an unmovable mover, god. why is this so hard to accept? it makes logical sense, much more so than to say we came from noting. or to say we dont know. because science will never know, since we cant trace history before existence.....seems to me you just dont want to accept god because you want to be your own god.



but that was never your agrument. you gave a reason for why you dont believe in god, namely, the so called "fallacies" of the bible, one of them being "god created the world in 6 days" and i destroyed your argument by pointing out it was not literally 6 days. its simbolical. if god wanted he could have created everything in 6 seconds....




Evolution does not say this, evolution asserts that it does not yet know for certain where humans evolved from, but there is much fossil evidence to say that we evolved from primitive ape-like mammals.?

and what did the primitive abpe like mammals evolve from? some lesser form of life such as bacteria? but then where did that come from? what is the origin? science cant give us that, and it will never be able to because history cant be traced back before existence. only religion can give us that answer. why dont you accept it? its most logical. you just get a kick out of biting the hand that feeds you dont you.[/quote]

The origin is Stardust. This was compressed in a Singularity just before the Big Bang.

Before that... it's likely there was another Universe. An endless cycle of birth, life, death, and rebirth.

the bible is not a book. its a collection of books written by many authors inspired by god... living book refers to the fact that it is still current today and people still read it today for advice on everyday situations. in otherwords it is timeless and has 0 contradictions in it. the one and only living book.

Nope. There are MANY contradictions in the Bible. But often, they get lost in translations because of the bias of the translators.

There are also MANY timeless books that have relevance today, as much as they did thousands of years ago. The Bhagavad-Gita, Dhammapada, and Upanishads come to mind.

one example of prophecy is the parting of the red sea. look what recently surfaced from the bottom of the red sea.

Google Image Result for http://azmann6.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/redsea01.jpg

you are all about material proof. well here it is.

Looks like a natural stone formation to me.

 

[Mr Cheese]

does that not render your concept of experience false too, as well as all these quotes and your concept that concepts are false?

no...

you can eat soup with a spoon or just stick your face in the bowl

But it is the soup that is eaten not the bowl or the spoon.

...



The search for the self, in other words, the search for the essence, the inwardness, and the way of the soul, stems from the recognition that one is alone in the world. When man stands suddenly alone in the world, when everything seems to be addressed only to him, then there is no aspect of reality that does not challenge him. He has to relate to this person or that situation, he has to judge and resolve all the problems of the world with himself as its center. It would appear that the real agony begins when one’s horizons in this world expand, as one rises from one level to another, and as one’s intellect and imagination encompass more of the domain of the human. With external reality pressing heavily on man, the physical, the philosophical, the psychological questions only intensify the urgency of the basic question of the self. Man may thus deepen his inner essence in his solitariness, making it something quite separate and special, adding new powers and talents, new ways of seeing things, sometimes also a deepening of thought, and sometimes nobility of spirit. And yet very often it seems that the basic point, the self, is untouched-even though the more a person grows, the more the problem of the self should also grow. So it is that a certain depth is added to the solitary person; he finds a whole world of inner treasures and spiritual powers. These can occupy the mind and give one the feeling of connection with things, even if only for a time. But ultimately the things that such a person attempts to cling to as moorings, as fixed points, are over and over again revealed as delusory. It is not that real points do not exist in the world, but rather that they are not permanent. A man cannot build on them and relate to them as to something fixed and definite, because in the long run all these points, both in external space and in his interior depths, only refer in turn to one focal point, to that very self which has no anchor at all.



The seeker is caught in a paradox. He is dismayed to learn that the resolution of the search for the self is not to be found by going into the self, that the center of the soul is to be found not in the soul but outside of it, that the center of gravity of existence is outside of existence. He may, to be sure, experience a glimmer of hope when he discovers that the focal point of individual existence can be found in existence as a whole. This discovery will bring him to what is stated in Psalm 73:


“My flesh and my hearth faileth: but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.”


He becomes aware, in other words, that the center of being is in God and not in-man. Only the point to be found at the center of the absolute provides the basis for a meaningful answer to the question that appears at first to be so very simple and so very distant from the search for the absolute.



A person may therefore stray as far as possible, infinitely far, from God, and there he can find the source of his deepest self, the point of the meaning of his soul. He orients himself on the map of his world and is startled and pained to learn that he is not necessarily its center. But recognizing that he is part of a larger existence that does go to the heart of the world, he can begin to take the path to this existence.



–Adin Steinsaltz (The Thirteen Petalled Rose)

 

[tomasortega]

Okay, a few thoughts:

1. My parents came from their parents and I assume that you came from your parents and they came from their parents. When you state a question as "where did we come from" I am obliged to answer it as you've stated it initially.



well, aint you a smarta...


2. You didn't destroy my argument. Do you take everything in the bible as true? If so then the bible saying that god is like a thousand years to man must be true, but it also must be true that god created eartha dn space in the week, no? If you don't take the bible as true, then god is like a thousand years to man must be symbological too as is saying that he created earth in six days, as too which i'm saying that symbological evidence does not count as evidence at all. Besides it is just a book! Can you rely on anything outside of the bible to say that god exists?


once again, the bible is not a book, but rather a collection of books written by many authors through god's inspiration.

once again, the bible is not to be taken literally. when god says 6 days, it could have been billions of years. when god said that one day to him is like a thousand to us. all he did was explain that unlike us, he is not affected by time . not literally 1000 years = 1 day. HENCE THE WORD "SYMBOLIC" NOT "LITERAL"



3. If scientists cannot prove that god exists, then you shouldn't use scientists to say that they "proved" that predicitons in the bible came true (you still haven't supplied me with that evidence either)

i provided archeological proof of moses parting the red sea and you conveniently ignored it. which tells me you are not honest and openminded in your pursuit of truth, but rather have an agenda to push to boost your ego and calm your fears of hell.

4. No doubt that the bible has helped many people, this doesn't mean that you should take what's in it as fact. especially when you have no clear evidence besides the book itself to say that god exists.

look at everything around you. what more proof do you need? the existence of a greater power out there is undeniable. funny how planet earth is perfectly placed for ideal weather conditions dont you think, one degree left or right and we would burn or freeze. is it really all by chance? a big bang somehow calculated and placed us in the exact position? use some common sense


5. Do you follow the bible accurately? Do you follow all of the ten commandements? Do you stone gays, adulterers and witches? Do you own slaves becuase the bible says it is alright to do so?

the old testament does not apply to us . it is more of a historical book telling us about the ancient israelites. when jesus came he did away with all the requirements of the old testament and gave us a simple way to salvation. believe in him period. no laws are necesarry once you have jesus christ in your heart because you will automatically do away with all sins. you will be a changed person. born again.

6. And where is the logic in believeing in a man who lives in the sky with little to none evidence to support his existence against following science and reason where there exponentially more evidence to support it's claims?

a man who lives in the sky? wow. are you really that dull?

7. Is everything in the bible symbological? did moses really part the red sea? did jesus really walk on water? Did adam and eve ever really exist?[/quote]

thats up to everyones interpretation. some fundamentalist christians believe it is all literally true. others only believe some of it is literal. either way, liberal or fundamentalist, it makes no difference, the message remains the same. accept jesus christ as your lord and savior so that he may take away your sins and give you a new birth in christ annointed through the holy spirit amen.

besides, ive already given you proof of the parting of the red sea, you chose to ignore it.

 

[Riverwolf]

Non-believer, most of your points are good, but there are some things.

6. And where is the logic in believeing in a man who lives in the sky with little to none evidence to support his existence against following science and reason where there exponentially more evidence to support it's claims?

God is not a man who lives in the sky. That's ancient Hebrew imagery.

7. Is everything in the bible symbological? did moses really part the red sea? did jesus really walk on water? Did adam and eve ever really exist?

It's likely that Moses never existed. (It was the Reed Sea, by the way, Yam Suf; Red Sea is a mistranslation. ) Jesus probably didn't walk on water. Adam and Eve are definitely symbolical. Don't forget that "Adam" means "humankind."

 

[Mr Cheese]

No (i must say this again (>_<) urgh!) is not to say someon'e beliefs are stupid, neither is this a "prove me wrong" topic, i simply asked


"What do you believe and why?"

Furthermore (i'm suggesting!), if you think that my beliefs are inconsistent, simply just question them and ask me questions about them. Input inquiries but please do not tackle the situation as a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach or a "you're stupid" approach.

ok....

There was a big pond, and in it three were three fishes. The fist fish was One-Thought, the second fish was Hundred-Thoughts, and the third fish was Thousand-Thoughts. At some time a fisherman came and cast his net. He caught those two fishes of many thoughts; but he did not catch the fish One-Thought.

–Manichaean Parable (Turtan fragment M127)

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh and here are a few bible contradictions:

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

Those aren't contradictions; the ancient author of the text believed light was separate from the sun. That parenthetical statement is NOT in the original text.

GE 4:15

, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."

Sounds an awful lot like Ares.

2CO 13:11

, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

THAT is far more likely.http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

 

[Riverwolf]

look at everything around you. what more proof do you need? the existence of a greater power out there is undeniable. funny how planet earth is perfectly placed for ideal weather conditions dont you think, one degree left or right and we would burn or freeze. is it really all by chance?

Yes, that was chance.

Is that so hard to grasp?

5. Do you follow the bible accurately? Do you follow all of the ten commandements? Do you stone gays, adulterers and witches? Do you own slaves becuase the bible says it is alright to do so?

the old testament does not apply to us . it is more of a historical book telling us about the ancient israelites. when jesus came he did away with all the requirements of the old testament and gave us a simple way to salvation. believe in him period. no laws are necesarry once you have jesus christ in your heart because you will automatically do away with all sins. you will be a changed person. born again.

Wrong. Many Christians sin all the time.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

funny how planet earth is perfectly placed for ideal weather conditions dont you think, one degree left or right and we would burn or freeze.

Actually, one degree to the left or right, and we'd either be about one day ahead or one day behind.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Funny. That's some strange askin'.

Fail.

To say something does not exist which is something outside of our understanding or current methods of scientific advancement do not mean something does not exist.

Therefore, aliens don't exist?
Oh, wait, you believe aliens exist.
But nobody has seen one!


Well, nobody trustworthy. Sure, Nev down the road was abducted by one, but Mary down the road was contacted by God.

Isn't that hypocritical double-standards?!

That is bigotry of the highest order. Can't they just be misguided or wrong?

Calling someone insane because they disagree with you? Sounds like fascism to me.

I suppose we can call you an insane irrational person since you said that you believe aliens exist, then? No?

I believe aliens exist simply because humans exist. My reasoning for believing that aliens exist is this: In all the cosmos I cannot believe that only earth is capable of life. I believe that there may be out there somewhere a planet in it's own goldilocks zone around a star (or with some alternate life-supporting source of energy) that is capable of having organisms on it. I don't, however, believe that they have visited earth, and I see no reason in believeing that they have because their is little to no evidence to suggest so.

I will give you however that they can be misguided and wrong, I should've said that.

It's not that I find people who claim interaction with aliens or deities untrustworthy, I find that their perceptions and their experiences may be untrustworthy. I myself question what I experience, becuase I can't trust my senses or my perceptions all the time, the brain can be fooled and the brain can fool itself.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I myself question what I experience, becuase I can't trust my senses or my perceptions all the time, the brain can be fooled and the brain can fool itself.

A non-trivial fact that fools never seem to grasp.

 

[Mr Cheese]

A non-trivial fact that fools never seem to grasp.

once a message is conveyed...meaning is lost
This does not mean the message itself is false...
Just that the conveyance after the fact is inadequate

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Okay ortega, even if there is proof of chariots and men at the bottom of the red sea, doesn't support the claim that 1)that god is real 2) moses parted the red sea.

It seems to me that it only shows that someone(s) ran there chariot(s) into a body of water. Adn you said yourself that science can't prove religion, so what is your point in using it to support your claim.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Okay ortega, even if there is proof of chariots and men at the bottom of the red sea, doesn't support the claim that 1)that god is real 2) moses parted the red sea.

It seems to me that it only shows that someone(s) ran there chariot(s) into a body of water. Adn you said yourself that science can't prove religion, so what is your point in using it to support your claim.

I have never seen a mongolian man's nipples

Does this mean they do not exist?
The evidence I have would support this, although I could suppose they exist based on the evidence other men have nipples.

Maybe they dont have nipples in zimbabwe

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Non-believer, most of your points are good, but there are some things.



God is not a man who lives in the sky. That's ancient Hebrew imagery.

Romanticizing again. Take my analogy out and put your image of god in its place.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

I have never seen a mongolian man's nipples

Does this mean they do not exist?
The evidence I have would support this, although I could suppose they exist based on the evidence other men have nipples.

Maybe they dont have nipples in zimbabwe

Maybe they don't, still i can go to zimbabwe and see if they do or don't have nipples.

 

[Breathe]

I believe aliens exist simply because humans exist. My reasoning for believing that aliens exist is this: In all the cosmos I cannot believe that only earth is capable of life. I believe that there may be out there somewhere a planet in it's own goldilocks zone around a star (or with some alternate life-supporting source of energy) that is capable of having organisms on it. I don't, however, believe that they have visited earth, and I see no reason in believeing that they have because their is little to no evidence to suggest so.

But nobody has seen an alien. NASA haven't found aliens - unless you're into conspiracies - so where is the differentiation between your insanity for believing in aliens and another's insanity for believing in God/gods?

I will give you however that they can be misguided and wrong, I should've said that.

Yes, yes you should have.
Don't forget though - you may be wrong. Hell, we may all be wrong. There might be a sky God out there who's angry and jealous and hates people who doesn't do as they're told. That's very, very, very doubtful though (thankfully I don't believe in anything like this for a moment) - but that's the thing, popular opinion or current knowledge in science doesn't mean it's not true - and to top it off, if that was true, it would suck major ***.

It's not that I find people who claim interaction with aliens or deities untrustworthy, I find that their perceptions and their experiences may be untrustworthy. I myself question what I experience, becuase I can't trust my senses or my perceptions all the time, the brain can be fooled and the brain can fool itself.

Everyone's perceptions and experiences may be untrustworthy. Can you explain red to one who was born blind? Orange? How about a rainbow? Or the sunset? Does that mean they don't exist? 'Course not. Do you even see the correct red? Is your red my blue? (Why am I picking on red?) How will either of us ever know which one is right?

Generally though, even those religions that have a talking God believe that God has representitives (why representitives though?), and I agree that their perceptions and experiences may be, and probably are, untrustworthy - or at least that they should be examined in careful detail so as to find out what they are - are they dreams? Subconscious? What makes them believe there is something supernatural at work?

Though I believe in God, I would find someone telling me that God speaks with them with a pinch of salt. Same as I believe in an afterlife, I take those telling me they're psychic with a pinch of salt. I'm not naïve. However, I will at least listen to them - then wonder why they think that, before deciding whether they're lying, insane, truthful, misguided, etc, and even then I shouldn't really judge unless I have some evidence contrary, but when it comes to these topics, how can one prove anything? Toughie.

 

[Riverwolf]

Romanticizing again. Take my analogy out and put your image of god in its place.

I have no image of God, because God cannot be imagined.

Besides, it's not my analysis that much of the metaphors in the Torah, including the ones pertaining to God, are of the human body and bodily functions.

I suggest you pick up Robert Alter's The Five Books of Moses.

 

[Willamena]

Romanticizing again. Take my analogy out and put your image of god in its place.

Oh, this should be fun...

"And where is the logic in believeing in everything and nothing with little to none evidence to support its existence against following science and reason where there exponentially more evidence to support the claims?"

Um...

 

[Mr Cheese]

Oh, this should be fun...

"And where is the logic in believeing in everything and nothing with little to none evidence to support its existence against following science and reason where there exponentially more evidence to support the claims?"

Um...

logic only falls within certain parameters....

reality does not

 

[nonbeliever_92]

But nobody has seen an alien. NASA haven't found aliens - unless you're into conspiracies - so where is the differentiation between your insanity for believing in aliens and another's insanity for believing in God/gods?


Yes, yes you should have.
Don't forget though - you may be wrong. Hell, we may all be wrong. There might be a sky God out there who's angry and jealous and hates people who doesn't do as they're told. That's very, very, very doubtful though (thankfully I don't believe in anything like this for a moment) - but that's the thing, popular opinion or current knowledge in science doesn't mean it's not true - and to top it off, if that was true, it would suck major ***.


Everyone's perceptions and experiences may be untrustworthy. Can you explain red to one who was born blind? Orange? How about a rainbow? Or the sunset? Does that mean they don't exist? 'Course not. Do you even see the correct red? Is your red my blue? (Why am I picking on red?) How will either of us ever know which one is right?

Generally though, even those religions that have a talking God believe that God has representitives (why representitives though?), and I agree that their perceptions and experiences may be, and probably are, untrustworthy - or at least that they should be examined in careful detail so as to find out what they are - are they dreams? Subconscious? What makes them believe there is something supernatural at work?

I believe that there could be aliens because their are humans. I will not take the egotistical human approach to believe that we are alone in this universe. I also believe that there also could be a god, I wouldn't assert that he is real though neither would I assert that aliens are real. what makes people insane or mistaken in believeing their perceptions is that most of the time they believe that others are supposed to believe their perceptions too. I could never describe color to a blind person, nor could I describe the color red to you, but I could never expect you or the blind person to believe me simply because I say so, I have to offer evidence or else not only am I insane, but you're insane too for following me without evidence or a similar experience also.