What And, More Importantly, Why?

[nonbeliever_92]

Okay, a few thoughts:

1. My parents came from their parents and I assume that you came from your parents and they came from their parents. When you state a question as "where did we come from" I am obliged to answer it as you've stated it initially.



well, aint you a smarta...


2. You didn't destroy my argument. Do you take everything in the bible as true? If so then the bible saying that god is like a thousand years to man must be true, but it also must be true that god created eartha dn space in the week, no? If you don't take the bible as true, then god is like a thousand years to man must be symbological too as is saying that he created earth in six days, as too which i'm saying that symbological evidence does not count as evidence at all. Besides it is just a book! Can you rely on anything outside of the bible to say that god exists?


once again, the bible is not a book, but rather a collection of books written by many authors through god's inspiration.

once again, the bible is not to be taken literally. when god says 6 days, it could have been billions of years. when god said that one day to him is like a thousand to us. all he did was explain that unlike us, he is not affected by time . not literally 1000 years = 1 day. HENCE THE WORD "SYMBOLIC" NOT "LITERAL"



3. If scientists cannot prove that god exists, then you shouldn't use scientists to say that they "proved" that predicitons in the bible came true (you still haven't supplied me with that evidence either)

i provided archeological proof of moses parting the red sea and you conveniently ignored it. which tells me you are not honest and openminded in your pursuit of truth, but rather have an agenda to push to boost your ego and calm your fears of hell.

4. No doubt that the bible has helped many people, this doesn't mean that you should take what's in it as fact. especially when you have no clear evidence besides the book itself to say that god exists.

look at everything around you. what more proof do you need? the existence of a greater power out there is undeniable. funny how planet earth is perfectly placed for ideal weather conditions dont you think, one degree left or right and we would burn or freeze. is it really all by chance? a big bang somehow calculated and placed us in the exact position? use some common sense


5. Do you follow the bible accurately? Do you follow all of the ten commandements? Do you stone gays, adulterers and witches? Do you own slaves becuase the bible says it is alright to do so?

the old testament does not apply to us . it is more of a historical book telling us about the ancient israelites. when jesus came he did away with all the requirements of the old testament and gave us a simple way to salvation. believe in him period. no laws are necesarry once you have jesus christ in your heart because you will automatically do away with all sins. you will be a changed person. born again.

6. And where is the logic in believeing in a man who lives in the sky with little to none evidence to support his existence against following science and reason where there exponentially more evidence to support it's claims?

a man who lives in the sky? wow. are you really that dull?

7. Is everything in the bible symbological? did moses really part the red sea? did jesus really walk on water? Did adam and eve ever really exist?

thats up to everyones interpretation. some fundamentalist christians believe it is all literally true. others only believe some of it is literal. either way, liberal or fundamentalist, it makes no difference, the message remains the same. accept jesus christ as your lord and savior so that he may take away your sins and give you a new birth in christ annointed through the holy spirit amen.

besides, ive already given you proof of the parting of the red sea, you chose to ignore it.[/quote]



So do you believe that everything in the bible is symbolism, ortega?

 

[Breathe]

I believe that there could be aliens because their are humans. I will not take the egotistical human approach to believe that we are alone in this universe.

Agreed, but for the sake of argument, there could still not be. You have no proof after all. Neither do we have any proof they exist.

I also believe that there also could be a god, I wouldn't assert that he is real though neither would I assert that aliens are real.

Well, what if you believe they may be? If you say there could be a god, are you not an agnostic?

what makes people insane or mistaken in believeing their perceptions is that most of the time they believe that others are supposed to believe their perceptions too. I could never describe color to a blind person, nor could I describe the color red to you, but I could never expect you or the blind person to believe me simply because I say so,

Makes sense, but people do. If something makes sense, then they follow it. Same as you believe there is (probably? ) no God, because it makes sense to you, I believe there is a God, because it makes sense to me. Indeed, many an "atheist" I have talked to who has in effect held such a wonderous view of the universe and nature itself that they have themselves held it to be in effect a god. ... that sentence sounded like Yoda it did. Feed my son now I must.

I have to offer evidence or else not only am I insane, but you're insane too for following me without evidence or a similar experience also.

Or offering something I like, or a good salesman.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

When there is no evidence to say that something exists it would not be right to assert that it does,

Scientists were looking for this particular moth, Xanthopan morganii, even before they were sure of its existence. The 19th-century naturalist Charles Darwin, studying an orchid whose nectar-producing organs lay 30 cm (12 in) inside the flower structure, hypothesized that there must be a moth with a tongue long enough to pollinate it. He proved to be correct: This Madagascan species, with the long front wings and thick body characteristic of other hawk moths, has a proboscis that measures between 30 and 35 cm (12 and 14 in) in length.


So by your statement Darwin had only a flower and no other real reason to believe the moth existed at all and thus, according to your argument, why should Darwin have even bother with such a fanciful hypothesis?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

No (i must say this again (>_<) urgh!) is not to say someon'e beliefs are stupid, neither is this a "prove me wrong" topic, i simply asked


"What do you believe and why?"

Furthermore (i'm suggesting!), if you think that my beliefs are inconsistent, simply just question them and ask me questions about them. Input inquiries but please do not tackle the situation as a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach or a "you're stupid" approach.

I believe however that one isn't completely sane or rational if they believe that something exists without reason or ability to produce evidence.

This sounds like a "I'm right, your wrong" judgment to me.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

one example of prophecy is the parting of the red sea. look what recently surfaced from the bottom of the red sea.

Google Image Result for http://azmann6.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/redsea01.jpg

you are all about material proof. well here it is.

I would not consider that proof that Moses parted the Red sea. It looks more like possible proof of a very old ship wreck. You need more than pictures of a couple of wheel like shapes at the bottom of some body of water to prove that the Red sea was parted by anyone.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I would not consider that proof that Moses parted the Red sea. It looks more like possible proof of a very old ship wreck. You need more than pictures of a couple of wheel like shapes at the bottom of some body of water to prove that the Red sea was parted by anyone.

Photographs?

DNA samples?

First hand accounts?

First born goat children?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

In all the cosmos I cannot believe that only earth is capable of life.

Gee that doesn't sound anymore foolish than some of the reasons people have giving you as to why they believe what they believe.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Photographs?

DNA samples?

First hand accounts?

First born goat children?

I'll take Goat Children for $100.00.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Scientists were looking for this particular moth, Xanthopan morganii, even before they were sure of its existence. The 19th-century naturalist Charles Darwin, studying an orchid whose nectar-producing organs lay 30 cm (12 in) inside the flower structure, hypothesized that there must be a moth with a tongue long enough to pollinate it. He proved to be correct: This Madagascan species, with the long front wings and thick body characteristic of other hawk moths, has a proboscis that measures between 30 and 35 cm (12 and 14 in) in length.


So by your statement Darwin had only a flower and no other real reason to believe the moth existed at all and thus, according to your argument, why should Darwin have even bother with such a fanciful hypothesis?

Correction, it appears to me that he hypothesized that this moth existed, he didn't assert that it was real. Darwin could assert that it must exist however because of his previous observation that insects pollinated flowers. Darwin's evidence was the flower and he hypothesized that the flower needed to be pollinated by insects like most other flowers. He had good reason to continue on with his investigation and scientist today had good reason to continue on too.

This sounds like a "I'm right, your wrong" judgment to me.

Where do i say "you're wrong" i just find believing something without reason foolish. I don't judge people's belief as much as i judge their reasons behind their belief.

Gee that doesn't sound anymore foolish than some of the reasons people have giving you as to why they believe what they believe.

I gave my reason as to why i believed that. How is my belief foolish?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Sure someone can be a good salesman, doesn't mean that someone is an honest salesman though.

 

[Breathe]

Sure someone can be a good salesman, doesn't mean that someone is an honest salesman though.

Honest and salesman? See, I recognise the words.. but they don't go together!

It's like, curry sauce on pizza. It's just.. wrong..!

 

[FredW]

What do you believe and why?

I believe that all? religious faith are cultural traditions and as such they are social constructs.

All that sounds very post modern and I am not a supporter of PM cause I trust that religious traditions to be byproducts of evolutionary predispositions to get along with a group that one are dependent on.

What term to use I am not sure of so I wrote Togetherness as my religion cause I believe that biologically we are social animals. There are always exceptions so some are loners who don't want to join up with others.

I am atheist in relation to revealed religions. I think gods only exists inside human brains.

Exists is wrong word but gods are present in human brains if the believer act upon a particular god and do things in that name.

I feel religious but I am intellectually an atheist. Usually atheists don't feel like believers do. Most atheists have no need for things like prayer or to be in a group of believers and to share.

Despite that I am as atheistic as any atheist I find that surprising.

It is like when people say they never listen to music. I agree that music don't really exists outside of human brains cause what birds and animals do is not music. Animals make calls but they don't make music.

Religions to me is like music. Music and gods gets a life when a believer act out of inner motivation and express their relation to music or god.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

This I believe:

A physical universe exists independent of me and independent of my perception of it. Neither my arrival nor departure (nor anyone else&#8217;s) will affect that universe much.

This external universe is all there is and all there ever will be. There are no supernatural beings or supernatural events.

My senses allow me to experience this universe not perfectly but effectively.

Reason is a valid tool for understanding this external universe.

My life is my own and has whatever meaning I assign to it. It is also the only experience I will ever have.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

look at everything around you. what more proof do you need? the existence of a greater power out there is undeniable. funny how planet earth is perfectly placed for ideal weather conditions dont you think, one degree left or right and we would burn or freeze. is it really all by chance? a big bang somehow calculated and placed us in the exact position? use some common sense

This argument reflects inexcusable ignorance. The planet was NOT designed for us. WE are evolved to fit the planet. Life adapts to the conditions it finds. We see this all around us. Life exists in places humans could not e.g. under the sea, in both artic cold and volcanic heat. Without special advantages we can only live on about 20% of the earth’s surface. And we are the constant victims of all sorts of hostile life forms. The earth is not an ideal environment for US. It barely allows us to exist. Without the application of reason we would still be living in trees in the equatorial belt.

The failure to recognize these is just ignorance of the first order; and reflects a limited understanding of even the most basic science.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

. . . seems to me you just dont want to accept god because you want to be your own god.

OK, just for fun . . .

Let's assume arguendo that is true. So what? What is your point?

And what does "be your own god" actually mean? What would I do that would make me "my own god" that I would NOT do if I was not my own god?

Please splain. quiring minds wanna know.

 

[FredW]

If you where your own God you could compete with the Christian God and challenge him on bringing down lightning to ignite a fire maybe?

I guess they use it in a non-literal way. They mean maybe you being your own highest authority.

I agree with your description some posts above. But what about emotions like compassion, how do you account for such?

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Because, for some reason, God is a requirement in their life. Life without God is unexplainable, so they feel that because we as atheists we don't believe (or 'reject' as they commonly say) in God, we must, somehow, have to make ourselves God because without God, life doesn't make sense.

It's a strange one, but the answer to those who feel this way is simple: We don't need God, a God, or want to be God. (Disclaimer: I'm referring to non-religious atheists )

GhK.

 

[Fortunato]

Hello everyone, interesting discussion as always!

My beliefs (in no particular order):

1. I believe it is important to maintain one's intellectual honesty because if you lack either intellect or honesty, then you will get no closer to the truth.
2. I believe all major religions contain aspects of truth which speak to the human condition because without this they would have failed.
3. I believe the scientific method is a valid method to ascertain what is true and what is not. This is not meant to imply that science has explained everything, it's just an acknowledgment that it's done a better job getting to the truth than other alternatives have.
4. I believe we live in a natural world and are dependent upon nature and the laws of nature to exist. The thought that there is something outside of our senses which we can neither see, nor hear, nor test the hypothesis or existence of, should strike everyone as strange. To say that we are here because god created us doesn't even answer anything, it just creates the illusion that we have somehow answered it. One could invoke god or the supernatural to explain anything, but that doesn't lead us any closer to the truth. Why is it that when a ball is dropped it moves towards the ground? Is it because god wills it to occur? No, it drops because any two bodies which have mass are attracted to each other. Which is a better explanation of how a light bulb works, that god wills light to emanate from the bulb, or the theory of electromagnetism? Invoking god to solve problems gets us no closer to the truth. On the contrary it leads us away from it.
5. Even if god did exist, there is no way to correctly figure out which religion is true. There are thousands of religions to choose from. Should you choose the one into which you were born or raised? This is by far the easiest choice, but it also seems like it's putting your fate into the hands of blind chance. What if you had been born to atheist, Hindu, Muslim, or Christian parents? By what method or test can we find out which ones truly worship god? There are billions of people who believe with all their being that they are following the correct religion. It's safe to assume that most of these people will have come up with questions which their religions have answered satisfactorily. Once they found their questions answered, they stopped looking at other religions. Does that mean they found the one true religion, or is it more likely that popular religions have similarly decent answers to most peoples questions regarding life, death, and the afterlife? I have yet to find a test so stringent that it could eliminate all but the one true religion without also eliminating itself.
6. I believe that most religious texts contain some historical truth, but their claims to the supernatural are unverifiable. If Penn and Teller were transported back to biblical times they would be mistaken for prophets.
7. Where did this merry-go-round ride that we call the universe come from? I have no idea. Like Jefferson said, "Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong".

 

[FredW]

... Like Jefferson said, "Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong".

A kind of agnosticism but using other words for it. As you yourself says it "Religion: undecided"

 

[other-side]

What is it that you do or don’t believe in and why or why not?

1- believe in existence of a supreme power that made everything

why:
- considering the mass of the big bang you can see that the creator is so clever that he put all the rules in that small massive thing.Read Astronomy and see the creation of earth and life on it was meant by the big bang.all the reactions were precise to bring such a situation on a planet earth. accepting that someone created the big bang is something rational.

2- believe in soul
why:
- I work with it specially when i,m sleep.
- I have tried astral projection and felt something like an electric body is trying to separate!its clear for me that my physical body is not alone!

3-The creator(God,Nature,power,life what ever you call it!!) is perfect in everything!
why:
- he's good at the micro and the macro! Atoms are doing their jobs flawlessly! they stick together perfectly to make what we need!the planets and suns are turning around each other amazingly and without any error!



4-believe in hereafter!
why:
- relates to my belief in spirit!
- our soul can't be destroyed because earthy rules don't control it and it has its own world
- injustice of this world.God is perfect so he doesn't like injustice!he made here to give people the chance of growing their soul by putting it in a body.Souls can't improve but he amazingly mixed soul and body and let it improve.he also gave us freedom.here we do whatever we want and there we will se what we have done!
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I

don’t believe in god(s) because for thousands of years people have been contemplating and wondering about the “oddities” of the planet and the universe. Religion, I assume, was initially used for explaining what humans couldn’t understand and giving relatable reasons, which would’ve been considered valid and reasonable back then, for natural phenomenon

*
That is partially true! but that doesn't mean that God was created by their lack of understanding.They just didn't understand God's rules and they made stupid assumptions!these are two different facts.
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I don’t rely on religion because of its fallacies against accepted and, most plausible, scientific facts. In the Bible it is said that he creates Earth and space (the “heavens”) in six days. But today there is much evidence to prove that earth took several million years to form and the universe in its current state too even more time to form.

*
I,m not a Christian but the word six days doesnt mean our actual day!it can be in 6 steps,levels,stages or whatever.you can see 6 days in Quran(Muslim's book) too.and their prophet explains it as 6 levels of work!he talks for the 1400 years ago Arabs which were illiterate at that time.the scientific speeches like the one your mentioned is in an ambiguous language!Dont expect that Jesus comes and tells deep scientific facts for the people that live 2000 years ago!+the point is that religion is about how to live your life,giving you a guide and telling how to manage your soul and the scientific facts is just too prove its sent down from God!I remember a sentence in Quran that says "you think earth is still while it is moving like the clouds!" see it has ambiguous.he could have said that earth moves around the sun or around itself but the people of that day would have rejected such an obvious thing because of their ignorance just like executing ..........
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I don’t have belief in god(s) because religion inhibits and slows intellectual progress. It seems to me that instead of providing real answers religion simply says “God did it, and that’s the truth,” which is absolutely absurd.

*
thats because of the ignorance of the people that lived long ago.I ask it again:
Do you expect that Jesus comes and tells deep scientific facts for the people that live 2000 years ago?he was forced to say God made it like that.That doesn't prove that the religions instructions are absurd!if you have questions about their thoughts we can make it easier!
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sorry for my bad english ! i,m not good at that!:areyoucra