What are Hamas' leaders thinking?

[LuisDantas]

Yesterday the Christian Science Monitor ran a rather long opinion piece under the headline "In Gaza, a different view of the Hamas raid on Israel". It's both painful and useful to read.

Painful indeed. I wonder what the Palestinians see as possible ways ahead.

This just can't end well for them, I fear. That they actually wanted it makes me wary of their future. Because there is only so much that can be tolerated.

I must also say that this situation isn't warming me up towards Islam any.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas was said to have been started because some Palestinians were killed in an auto accident involving an Israeli driver.

"was said to" isn't a very strong claim.
But its existence now is due to thousands of Palestinians
being killed, tortured, shot, bombed, abused, oppressed,
& punished collectively. Resistance won't go away until
Israel changes its ways.
There are 2 courses for Israel...
1) Kill, evict, or totally crush Palestinians.
2) Negotiate parity of rights with Jews.

Oddly, I've talked with fundie Christians
who favor #1 based upon the Bible.

 

[Revoltingest]

HAMAS will not get my sympathy.

Nor mine.
But I understand why they do what they do.

The Palestinian people, trapped in Gaza, like convicts, and now under siege. Do get my sympathy. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hamas are filth. They do not care about the Palestinians, they only care about creating an Islamic state, and destroying Israel.

It's glib to say Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians.
Consider that they could see themselves as liberating
the oppressed, & willing to endure high costs.

We must resist succumbing to all the simplistic
demonizing we hear from fervent partisans.
It's complicated.
Look for both evil on merit on each side.

 

[Revoltingest]

That has worked charmingly in the past.

I wouldn't say "worked" in the sense of success.
But the act did play out as expected.
And again it does.

I don't know enough about the situation in Palestine but if Hamas was losing support, they may have done it to re-establish themselves as "the fighters for freedom" within Palestine.
The other option is that some foreign force is interested in re-heating the conflict and has promised support for Hamas.
Yes, the later sounds like conspiracy theory but that is how international politics works.

Conspiracies with evidence based arguments for
existence are worth discussing. The unevidenced
kind....meh.

 

[Little Dragon]

Consider that they could see themselves as liberating
the oppressed, & willing to endure high costs.

If they truly believed that they were a benefit to those people that they claim to represent, they wouldn't go out to commit atrocities on innocents, knowing full well what the cost would be and who would mostly be paying it. The average Palestinian child. Not those filthy cowards gunning down the unarmed and then bolting back to their tunnels, like the vermin they are.

 

[Revoltingest]

The "terrorists" are on both sides of this.
The big difference is that Israel's is systematic
with government approval, including USA's.

The greater power to end mutual hostilities
& violence lies with the more powerful party.
It's Israel's move.
And it has chosen the status quo.

I must modify the above post a little....
It appears that Israel is changing the status

If they truly believed that they were a benefit to those people that they claim to represent, they wouldn't go out to commit atrocities on innocents, knowing full well what the cost would be and who would mostly be paying it.

Not necessarily so.
They could judge that sacrificing some innocent
lives for ultimate freedom from oppression serves
a greater good.

The average Palestinian child. Not those filthy cowards gunning down the unarmed and then bolting back to their tunnels, like the vermin they are.

A little demonization is OK.
Let's not over-do it.

 

[Little Dragon]

A little demonization is OK.
Let's not over-do it.

Everything in moderation, including moderation.

 

[Revoltingest]

Everything in moderation, including moderation.

I favor extreme moderation.

 

[Little Dragon]

They could judge that sacrificing some innocent
lives for ultimate freedom from oppression serves
a greater good.

Yeah, we call those people. ********. When there are other options, that don't include raping and murdering.

 

[Little Dragon]

We must resist succumbing to all the simplistic
demonizing we hear from fervent partisans.

I do not do that. I have repeatedly made it clear that Israel is hardly coming to the court with clean hands. IMO.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not do that.

Not saying you did.
Notice the "We".
It includes me too.

 

[Little Dragon]

Not saying you did.

Good, unless you want Dragonland cruise missiles, up yer kilt.

 

[Sargonski]

Yesterday the Christian Science Monitor ran a rather long opinion piece under the headline "In Gaza, a different view of the Hamas raid on Israel". It's both painful and useful to read.

Forgot who but one person summed things up saying .. When you treat people like animals .. over generations .. don't be surprised when they act like animals. This not to say the dog who gets out of the cage and attacks the boy who has been poking it with a stick every day as he passes buy does not have to be put down .. indeed we need to put down the animal who attacks the boy... but, we many not be in this nasty situation had the boy not acted illegally .. committed countless war crimes .. crimes against humanity against the dog .. and the dogs entire family .. over numerous generations.

 

[Orbit]

A view from Gaza: Gaza Is a Nightmare Today, but We Will Not Stop Dreaming of Freedom

 

[F1fan]

Forgot who but one person summed things up saying .. When you treat people like animals .. over generations .. don't be surprised when they act like animals.

I'm surprized humans don't know better than to act like animals, especially when they follow a religion.

The funny thing is that if humans are superior to other animals, and can understand what is happening to them, and then act wisely despite the treatment, they are truly wise. If they act through their emotions as any other non-human animal would do then how special are humans, and how wise can they be said to be? Remember how Gandhi led his people to take the brunt of English violence and do so peacefully? That's what they did, and they won. Hamas reacting like an animal only verifies the label they were given has some merit. No one wins the moral war with violence.

I'm not justifying what Israel has done any more than what the English had done in India. My point is that how humans behave does influence their future.

 

[Bthoth]

If one focuses only upon the sins of the
side one opposes, this is the mind killer.
It leads to intransigence & more violence.

I do not like watching the videos of the atrocities, no matter the side. They break my heart.

But I agree with you, trying to comprehend the divide can never be fair without having the integrity of listening to both sides. That is the only way to seek or comprehend a peaceful solution.

There is no one side to maintain a bias for even with the atrocities becoming down right ugly.

At least you are trying to be honest. I have been doing the same even with the Ukraine war.

 

[Bthoth]

I'm surprized humans don't know better than to act like animals, especially when they follow a religion.

I feel the same but i am very well aware that both sides are human beings.

The funny thing is that if humans are superior to other animals, and can understand what is happening to them, and then act wisely despite the treatment, they are truly wise.

IN many ways, I figure Israelis have been very patient. And many jews actually still work and live within Gaza, because empathy for human life is far more natural than blind hatred.

If they act through their emotions as any other non-human animal would do then how special are humans, and how wise can they be said to be?

Empathy is a human condition and why I maintain hope.

Hamas reacting like an animal only verifies the label they were given has some merit. No one wins the moral war with violence.

I agree, hamas has gone to far and such cruelty is unwarranted. But as empathetic as people can be, the other side of just inhumane cruelty is a capability. When Gaza was fenced in, I wondered how could israel do that after ww2 when so many were so rudely harmed within german concentration camps. It was hard to comprehend.

I'm not justifying what Israel has done any more than what the English had done in India. My point is that how humans behave does influence their future.

and their children. Many israelis lost parents and grandparents in ww2 because of inhumane acts. Many of those children are now the people of israel. You would think that they know better and comprehend how cruel fencing people in and committing oppression can damage the next generations.

 

[Sargonski]

I'm surprized humans don't know better than to act like animals, especially when they follow a religion.

The funny thing is that if humans are superior to other animals, and can understand what is happening to them, and then act wisely despite the treatment, they are truly wise. If they act through their emotions as any other non-human animal would do then how special are humans, and how wise can they be said to be? Remember how Gandhi led his people to take the brunt of English violence and do so peacefully? That's what they did, and they won. Hamas reacting like an animal only verifies the label they were given has some merit. No one wins the moral war with violence.

I'm not justifying what Israel has done any more than what the English had done in India. My point is that how humans behave does influence their future.

People are not Ghandi ... Nelson Mandela .. was not Ghandi .. The UN .. is not Ghandi .. under which the Occupied are legally entitled to violence against the Occupier.

"No one wins the moral war with violence" -- and certainly this is true of State of Israel -- acting like animals despite because of bad treatment by the Palestinians .. and as you have argued .. I am not justifying what the Israeli's have done either .. and fully agree that how Israel behaved had a role in influencing the future.

In terms of general history - self determination has almost never been achieved through peace -- unfortunately .. the Occupied must rise up violently against the Occupier .. should they wish to achieve freedom.

I'm not trying to justify what Hamas has done any more than the Ukrainians struggling against what Russia has done in Ukraine.

 

[Bthoth]

Don't do it then.

I dont know why you maintain a blanket hatred.

Apparently? Either I do or don't. If I do, why?

Only you can e'splane your own actions and the 'why' behind them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hamas are filth.

Hamas is many things. First and foremost, it is the administrative infrastructure in Gaza, including the administration of critical social services upon which the majority of Gaza's population is more or less reliant.

I suggest that folks thoughtfully read:
What is Hamas? What to know about its origins, leaders and funding.