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What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would rather not elaborate on those matters in a DIR thread, but since you're asking me directly, I will have to say that far as I can tell no religious teaching can ever be clear, or remain clear along the generations, until and unless practicioners of good faith make a sincere effort to lend it validity.

Yes, lend. I don't recognize scripture as being inherently true and valid. I wouldn't even if I believed in God. Scriptures are not magic scrolls or anything of the sort. To follow scripture strictly is inherently an empty proposal, regardless of whichever scripture we may be talking about.

So yes, I know what you are talking about. You are talking about the non-fundamentalists. The people who value their religion over their scripture. The sane ones, and the ones that make their religions valid. The ones who recognize the potential and flexibility of their own hearts and minds and are not afraid of having better judgement than words written centuries ago and forever unchanging and unrecognizing of new circunstances and developments.

If you want to follow on with this exchange, I guess we should resort to PM or to another, non-DIR, thread.

Sorry for you folks for my venting in, but I thought it would be bad to leave such a suggestion hanging around without answer and clarification.

We don't believe in any magical scrolls. We believe Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions wrote down what they memorized from the inspirations that he received from God. So, we don't change them, because nothing suggests that we do. You think we should, that is your opinion. I don't feel so, and don't need so, neither do the rest of Muslims.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
How can that be so except by supernatural means, however?

Even for adepts of such a religion such as Christianity or Islam that thinks of itself as the final revelation from a creator God, it is still dangerous to assume that both the scripture and its interpretation are final and unchanging. The world simply does not work like that, and fortunately so: neither Muslims nor Christians are honor-bound to settle for the social and moral levels of centuries past - and for that reason have let go of slavery and of much of their warfare, to mention only two major things.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How can that be so except by supernatural means, however?

You mean the inspiration part?

Even for adepts of such a religion such as Christianity or Islam that thinks of itself as the final revelation from a creator God, it is still dangerous to assume that both the scripture and its interpretation are final and unchanging. The world simply does not work like that, and fortunately so: neither Muslims nor Christians are honor-bound to settle for the social and moral levels of centuries past - and for that reason have let go of slavery and of much of their warfare, to mention only two major things.

I didn't say the interpretations are not up to revision, i only meant the part about changing rules or anything like that. Also, yes of course we are not bound to follow social or moral values of centuries past, not everything they did reflects our religion. Just like not everything we do now reflects our religion.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The biggest mistake Muslims do when informing me about Islam is to not use puppets to illustrate their points. I don't listen to anything that is not illustrated with puppets. I used to listen to things that were not illustrated with puppets, but life was dull back then. Now life is interesting and it's because I insist that anything I listen to be illustrated by puppets.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You mean the inspiration part?

No, that is quite easy to understand.

It's the immutability of scripture and of its interpretation that I have trouble with. That would demand not only inspiration, but also some sort of divine warranty that the specific religious message is solid and encompassing to a degree that I don't think is at all possible in reality. There is a reason why even hardcore Christians and Orthodox Jews have learned to reject slavery and some sorts of corporal punishment, for instance.

While I understand that some Muslims (most? I really don't know) will take offense at the very idea, scripture will not and cannot be valid until the end of times (or the coming of the Mahdi, I suppose). The world is far too complex and goes through much too powerful changes to allow that. And that is a good thing, too, for faith is no reason not to grown and learn along the generations.

I didn't say the interpretations are not up to revision, i only meant the part about changing rules or anything like that.

I'm afraid that amounts to much the same.

Also, yes of course we are not bound to follow social or moral values of centuries past, not everything they did reflects our religion. Just like not everything we do now reflects our religion.

I'm not sure I understand why not.
 

Commoner

Headache
Yes, but in god's case, there are more things to make the idea more believable and reasonable, unlike pixies. You might not see it that way but i most certainly do. Many things make it likely to me that a god exists, which is not the case with pixies. Also, like i told you, it's of no importance to me wether or not pixies exist. So, my stance from it will be that there is no evidence they exist, so i don't think they exist, but that still doesn't mean there is no chance they do. Just like the aliens example.

Things like...?

I never said anything about proving, i can't prove to you such thing, for more than one reason. But i do the feel the effect of prayer in my life, as well as millions of others, but that of course doesn't count as evidence.

Sure, and millions of people have, over the years, felt the effect of sugar pills. The placebo effect is a very powerful thing and the effect is quite real - it's just not caused by sugar pills.

Yes but you said God in general, so i thought i clarify that assumably even if a certain version of God seems less likely to exist, doesn't mean you should discard the idea completely. Not you specifically, but i mean people shouldn't discard it.

Not discard, but certainly not lean towards either.

Yes i agreed that he wants or expects worship when i agreed with the Quran, my point was not that i don't agree, it was that we don't know why would he want that, which would make a huge difference in my judgment.

But how did you decide that it was something a god would want?

I don't think this is the case. Theories are not proven, yet there is a chance it's correct. Not anything that is not proven is by default false.

No - not false. Things aren't false, until they are demonstrated to be true - they simply aren't true until they are demonstrated to be true. By default - absolutely.

For the part about things being indoctrinated to me. That also happened with lots, and lots of other things, yet i don't agree with it now. All these things, or at least most of them, have been questioned by me, it fell under my skepticism,and then i decided my position from it.

No, I didn't really mean to imply that you were indoctirnated, you simply live in a society where it's normal to assume there is a god.
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, that is quite easy to understand.

It's the immutability of scripture and of its interpretation that I have trouble with. That would demand not only inspiration, but also some sort of divine warranty that the specific religious message is solid and encompassing to a degree that I don't think is at all possible in reality. There is a reason why even hardcore Christians and Orthodox Jews have learned to reject slavery and some sorts of corporal punishment, for instance.

While I understand that some Muslims (most? I really don't know) will take offense at the very idea, scripture will not and cannot be valid until the end of times (or the coming of the Mahdi, I suppose). The world is far too complex and goes through much too powerful changes to allow that. And that is a good thing, too, for faith is no reason not to grown and learn along the generations.

Well, that is the case. In the Quran god dives that warranty. But there is something else, which makes it also likely, that as you may already know, memorizing the entire Quran is something that a lot of Muslims do. In the old days, it was even more crucial, because if you have lots of people who memorize the entire Quran, it's hard to change something in it, without them realizing.

The Quran set rules, moral stuff, there is nothing that changed that makes morals change. People's behavior change yes, but just because for example in the past it was okay to have slaves, doesn't mean they were right in that. Right is right and wrong is wrong in anytime. And there is exceptions, which would be identified or easily concluded that in this particular case right and wrong will be different than usual, because of the different circumstances. An obvious example, if someone attacked or threatened my life, and i killed him while defending myself, not intentionally but i was defending my life(self defense in other words), then it's not wrong. So, aside from such situations, right and wring is the same in any time.

I'm afraid that amounts to much the same.

Not at all. The difference in interpretations result in completely different outcomes. It's only the idea of changing rules we believe the Quran says. I mean if we interpret a verse, and can't see any other possible meaning to the verse, we can't change the outcome we take from that. If there is another interpretation, then that solves it. Before someone becomes a Muslim, he must make sure that he learns all the rules, to make sure he agrees with all of them. If there are some he don't agree with, he should try to make sure that there is no possibility that there is another meaning for the verse and so, if there isn't, he shouldn't become a Muslim.

I'm not sure I understand why not.

Because we are not assured that we understand all the teachings correctly, we are only assured that they will always be available for us, like they always used to, without any less information. But for example, there are lots of Hadiths that are wrong and added, which can result in wrong things, which means we are not properly following our religion. Also, there are traits that is common with muslims today, that are against the teachings of Islam. So, our implementation today isn't perfect neither.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Things like...?

Like all the reasons i told you made me believe for example, which doesn't occur with pixies.

Sure, and millions of people have, over the years, felt the effect of sugar pills. The placebo effect is a very powerful thing and the effect is quite real - it's just not caused by sugar pills.

That is certainly true, but it doesn't mean that this is without a doubt the case with all the billions who believe in god and pray for him. It's easy to make such assumptions, and they do make sense, but they are not conclusive.

Not discard, but certainly not lean towards either.

There is a probability that we will never have evidence, or in other words it's intended that we don't have evidence, so that our faith can be tested. So, since all my requirements have been met, why wouldn't i believe, i should, there is no reason for me not to believe. Not one.

But how did you decide that it was something a god would want?

I didn't decide, it is based on my belief in the Quran. That's why i told you i don't want to make speculations and stuff, i only know about him what he told me, in the Quran which i believe to be his words.

No - not false. Things aren't false, until they are demonstrated to be true - they simply aren't true until they are demonstrated to be true. By default - absolutely.

I agree, that i can't say it is true, or impose it as true, since it is not proven, but i can believe myself that it is. Because if i impose it as so, i must have evidence to support my claim. That's the whole meaning of faith, which i don't see any problem with.

No, I didn't really mean to imply that you were indoctirnated, you simply live in a society where it's normal to assume there is a god.

I can't deny that this is the case.
 

Commoner

Headache
That is certainly true, but it doesn't mean that this is without a doubt the case with all the billions who believe in god and pray for him. It's easy to make such assumptions, and they do make sense, but they are not conclusive.

There is no such thing as conclusive - ever. This is pretty much as close as it gets, though.

There is a probability that we will never have evidence, or in other words it's intended that we don't have evidence, so that our faith can be tested. So, since all my requirements have been met, why wouldn't i believe, i should, there is no reason for me not to believe. Not one.

There is a possibility that we were intended not to have evidence (yet) and that we were intended not to believe in things we didn't have evidence for. Want to talk about a real test - that's it.

I didn't decide, it is based on my belief in the Quran. That's why i told you i don't want to make speculations and stuff, i only know about him what he told me, in the Quran which i believe to be his words.

There seems to be a contradiction here. Wasn't that one of the reasons you've chosen your belief - that you read the Quran and agreed with everything in it, foung no errors, no contradictions? Well, if that's the case, then you must have had a reason to believe that a god would expect worship, right?

For me, that would be an instant red flag - why would a being of such wisdom and power want, demand to be worshipped? Are you telling me you didn't solve that riddle before accepting the Quran as the word of God?

I agree, that i can't say it is true, or impose it as true, since it is not proven, but i can believe myself that it is. Because if i impose it as so, i must have evidence to support my claim. That's the whole meaning of faith, which i don't see any problem with.

Well, no - I'm not criticizing you having faith. What I'm criticizing is the way in which you say you came to it. You said that it was important for you to make a decision on the matter of whether or not a god existed.

But supernatural claims cannot be shown to be true - they're, by default, not true. So to use the potential consequences of the supernatural claims in order to justify making a decision to believe in them is...well, at least circular, if nothing else.

All the reason you've given me were exactly that - if there is a god, then this and that and the other are the consequences. Therefore, I decided...

If my arm were on fire, I'd better find some water fast, right? So, unless I have evidence that my arm isn't on fire, I'll just sprinkle some water on it. That's pretty much what you've done, as far as I can see.

EDIT: BTW, sorry for taking so long to answer your post from the other day. Had some exams to fail... :p
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no such thing as conclusive - ever. This is pretty much as close as it gets, though.

I don't see it that way at all. There is a good chance that this is the case, but it's not assured at all.

There is a possibility that we were intended not to have evidence (yet) and that we were intended not to believe in things we didn't have evidence for. Want to talk about a real test - that's it.

This is the part i discussed in that other thread. There i mentioned the reasons i don't agree with this possibility.

There seems to be a contradiction here. Wasn't that one of the reasons you've chosen your belief - that you read the Quran and agreed with everything in it, foung no errors, no contradictions? Well, if that's the case, then you must have had a reason to believe that a god would expect worship, right?

For me, that would be an instant red flag - why would a being of such wisdom and power want, demand to be worshipped? Are you telling me you didn't solve that riddle before accepting the Quran as the word of God?

I didn't have a reason, because if i had a reason for why he wanted to be worshiped, that means i know his motives, which i don't. However it doesn't strike as something that strange.

Well, no - I'm not criticizing you having faith. What I'm criticizing is the way in which you say you came to it. You said that it was important for you to make a decision on the matter of whether or not a god existed. But supernatural claims cannot be shown to be true - they're, by default, not true. So to use the potential consequences of the supernatural claims in order to justify making a decision to believe in them is...well, at least circular, if nothing else. All the reason you've given me were exactly that - if there is a god, then this and that and the other are the consequences. Therefore, I decided...If my arm were on fire, I'd better find some water fast, right? So, unless I have evidence that my arm isn't on fire, I'll just sprinkle some water on it. That's pretty much what you've done, as far as I can see.

This is the part we view things differently. Not everything thats not proven is not true, but it is just not assured or factual. Just like the aliens example again. The only difference that there are reasons in God's case to make me inclined towards the possibility that he exists, the reasons i told you.

EDIT: BTW, sorry for taking so long to answer your post from the other day. Had some exams to fail... :p

:D No worries.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Some people embrace evolution in spite of their religious beliefs while some do not. Jews can be as superstitious as any, some not. The same can be said of all people.
You said:

Rubbish. All religions reside in the past. Faiths are not flexible.
Obviously you are wrong. some religions are willing to bend and consider their dogmas in the face of science.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Caladan said:
And this is where you have completely stopped making sense.

It makes perfect sense. A religion is not just an arbitrary collection of people, it is a very "organic" entity which is made up of much more than just it's adherents and founders.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
It makes perfect sense. A religion is not just an arbitrary collection of people, it is a very "organic" entity which is made up of much more than just it's adherents and founders.

Without adherents religion ceases to exist.

Religion is only as logical as its adherents make it out to be.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Darkendless said:
Without adherents religion ceases to exist.

That does not mean a religion is merely the sum of it's adherents and nothing more.

Darkendless said:
Religion is only as logical as its adherents make it out to be.

I don't see how logic has anything to do with any of this...

It seems your argument is based around how realistic you personally find religions to be. That's got nothing to do with religions being merely the sum of their adherents.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
abu rashid said:
It makes perfect sense. A religion is not just an arbitrary collection of people, it is a very "organic" entity which is made up of much more than just it's adherents and founders.

That's strange, I thought Muslims thought of religion as opposite to what you are saying - an "organic entity".

Organic allow for changes or make allowance for changes. Changes may lead to good or bad.

Because from what some RF Muslims have said in other threads, Islam and the Qur'an are supposed to be unchangeable and perfect, like their supposed perfect god. If Islam supposed to be perfect, but if what you are saying is true, then it is changeable and organic therefore your religion is imperfect.

Which is it?
 
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