What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

[Badran]

@Badran: could you comment on this please? What do you think about this?

I think killing people for having sex in public would be criminal and indeed a clear sign of at least the lack of any sign of rational and coherent thought. To equate the punishment of a murderer with the punishment of two people having sex even in public is quite simply inexcusable. But thats not even it, because the punishment in those cases is worse than the punishment of a murderer.

I'll clarify with a very simple example. The supposed punishment for infidelity is stoning to death according to Hadiths. While the punishment for a murderer is just death. How on earth can the punishment of an adulterer be worse than that of a murderer? The murderer gets to die instantly, while the adulterer is put in a circle, humiliated and tortured and takes time and bleeds until he dies.

Add to that, that the Quran says otherwise.

 

[Commoner]

I think killing people for having sex in public would be criminal and indeed a clear sign of at least the lack of any sign of rational and coherent thought. To equate the punishment of a murderer with the punishment of two people having sex even in public is quite simply inexcusable. But thats not even it, because the punishment in those cases is worse than the punishment of a murderer.

I'll clarify with a very simple example. The supposed punishment for infidelity is stoning to death according to Hadiths. While the punishment for a murderer is just death. How on earth can the punishment of an adulterer be worse than that of a murderer? The murderer gets to die instantly, while the adulterer is put in a circle, humiliated and tortured and takes time and bleeds until he dies.

Add to that, that the Quran says otherwise.

Well, thank god for that! And thank you for commenting.

 

[England my lionheart]

Agreed. It's utterly reprehensible and indefensible. Muslim-majority countries of today with the possible exception of Turkey desperately need either another Golden Age or an Englightenment Age. I'm sure there are reasonable and moral people there but it appears as though immoral brigands are running the show, so I feel sorry for them.

Me too,i feel sorry for the Girl in Iran who was given 80 lashes before they hoisted her up by the neck,what is it with these people,in an earlier post which i pasted from Islamonline had three Schools of thought,one was for throwing a Gay from a high building,one for stoning and one for 100 lashes.

And yes i agree,please Islam enlightenment would be good

 

[Bismillah]

So you are trying to tell me that all the people executed for Adultery in Saudi,Pakistan,Iran etc all had four witnesses who saw the actual act,no way.

It gets worse though doesn't it,because the Woman get buried up to her neck whereas the Man only to his waste,thats of course if there are four witnesses,its nothing less than murder.

Which of course is again a problem with the people not the law.

 

[Bismillah]

Add to that, that the Quran says otherwise.

I would like to see a verse that explicitly states that because your word against the hadith is not any good.

 

[Badran]

I would like to see a verse that explicitly states that because your word against the hadith is not any good.

In case of adultery, the Quran says that the punishment is lashing, not murder, i'm sure you know which verse.

In the case of homosexuals, the Quran mentions homosexuals and says nothing about punishing them, which is a clear sign of its own.

In addition of course to the quite simply unexplainable logical problems that this supposed punishment raises. Being that these punishments are worse than that of a murderer, which is quite simply impossible. Especially when one considers the Quranic stance.

Also, you must put in mind that as you very well know the collecting of hadiths and their status etc.. is human work, which is prone to mistakes. So its not my word against hadith, its my word, the Quran, and logic against a supposed Hadith that is claimed to have been said by the prophet (pbuh).

 

[Meow Mix]

I would like to see a verse that explicitly states that because your word against the hadith is not any good.

Do you think it's morally righteous to murder people who have sex in a place that they might be seen or for having homosexual sex?

 

[England my lionheart]

In case of adultery, the Quran says that the punishment is lashing, not murder, i'm sure you know which verse.

In the case of homosexuals, the Quran mentions homosexuals and says nothing about punishing them, which is a clear sign of its own.

In addition of course to the quite simply unexplainable logical problems that this supposed punishment raises. Being that these punishments are worse than that of a murderer, which is quite simply impossible. Especially when one considers the Quranic stance.

Also, you must put in mind that as you very well know the collecting of hadiths and their status etc.. is human work, which is prone to mistakes. So its not my word against hadith, its my word, the Quran, and logic against a supposed Hadith that is claimed to have been said by the prophet (pbuh).

No need to tell you that you are right:

Verses 24-2,3 says: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with 100 stripes." “The adulterer shall not marry save an adultress, and the adultress shall not marry save an adulterer or an idolater All that is forbidden unto believers

 

[Bismillah]

In case of adultery, the Quran says that the punishment is lashing, not murder, i'm sure you know which verse.

No, the case of adultery between two unmarried person results in 100 lashing and in that context alone.

In the case of homosexuals, the Quran mentions homosexuals and says nothing about punishing them, which is a clear sign of its own.

There is no clear sign of punishing them for simply being homosexual, but there are if they engage in the intimate details of homosexuality in public, which stem from the punishment of adultery in public.

In addition of course to the quite simply unexplainable logical problems that this supposed punishment raises. Being that these punishments are worse than that of a murderer, which is quite simply impossible. Especially when one considers the Quranic stance.

What do you mean worse than murder? Are you aware that a person who commits a murder may be killed in the same fashion with which he deposed of his victims?

Also, you must put in mind that as you very well know the collecting of hadiths and their status etc.. is human work, which is prone to mistakes. So its not my word against hadith, its my word, the Quran, and logic against a supposed Hadith that is claimed to have been said by the prophet (pbuh).

No, it quite clearly is your word and your own diverging interpretation. For the Qur'an does not contradict this in any way, merely specifies for the case of adultery of unmarried individuals.

And furthermore, the Hadith that you are pointing out that have "erred" include those of Umar (R.A) and recorded enforcement of this punishment by the Prophet himself. So I am not quite sure how you see it fit that your logic takes supreme to the actions of the Prophet and the recording of the Prophet's companion.

 

[Bismillah]

Do you think it's morally righteous to murder people who have sex in a place that they might be seen or for having homosexual sex?

What a strange question. A punishment stems from a transgression and herein we must ask ourselves if it will ever be acceptable for people to carry out these acts in the public, thereby potentially exposing children and most definitely corrupting the morals of society.

At this point, if the accused is not repentant, their status is not the concern. The concern is the overall health of society itself. The punishment is enacted as a deterrent to stop any future corrosion of society's morals. And rightly so or else any Shariah rule country in the world would succumb to the same weaknesses that they tried to distance themselves from.

 

[Bismillah]

To equate the punishment of a murderer with the punishment of two people having sex even in public is quite simply inexcusable.

I'm not sure where you find it as inexcusable but that is one of the biggest transgressions in Islam and I could care less what secular thought says on the matter.

Because in Islam the most important thing in life is family and adultery is a clear undermining of the concept. That there would be people perverted and misguided enough to discount the honor and love of his wife and children to pursue their deeds in the public eye. Then that person has no place in a Muslim society. Ever.

 

[Meow Mix]

What a strange question. A punishment stems from a transgression and herein we must ask ourselves if it will ever be acceptable for people to carry out these acts in the public, thereby potentially exposing children and most definitely corrupting the morals of society.

At this point, if the accused is not repentant, their status is not the concern. The concern is the overall health of society itself. The punishment is enacted as a deterrent to stop any future corrosion of society's morals. And rightly so or else any Shariah rule country in the world would succumb to the same weaknesses that they tried to distance themselves from.

Does this mean that yes, you believe it's righteous to murder people who happen to have sex in a place where someone can happen to see them?

I'm a little disturbed that you can justify this notion and seem quite happy about doing so. Nothing personal, I still like you, but I don't think I could trust you morally to have my back or any responsibility over me if you believe this.

 

[Bismillah]

Does this mean that yes, you believe it's righteous to murder people who happen to have sex in a place where someone can happen to see them?

Yes.

I'm a little disturbed that you can justify this notion and seem quite happy about doing so. Nothing personal, I still like you, but I don't think I could trust you morally to have my back or any responsibility over me if you believe this.

Why would you say that I am happy to say this? The fact is I am not happy that people are hurt or that some people choose to undermine the lives of their wives and children to pursue these selfish and sick desires. The fact is that I really do wish people could live happy productive lives and that society could embrace each and everyone of us. The fact is that with these punishments most logical people would think twice before engaging in these activities. That these laws prevent the instance from becoming an endemic and ruining the marriages of so many people and that it would force people to at least have some decency for others and close the door.

But there are people who would put their desires above anyone else and in the process harm each and everyone of us. So no, perhaps it's a cultural barrier but I see adultery as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Look I'm not talking about imposing a government on people that don't want it. Shariah is a binding agreement between people who agree with its principles and wish to be governed by them.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm not sure where you find it as inexcusable but that is one of the biggest transgressions in Islam and I could care less what secular thought says on the matter.

Because in Islam the most important thing in life is family and adultery is a clear undermining of the concept. That there would be people perverted and misguided enough to discount the honor and love of his wife and children to pursue their deeds in the public eye. Then that person has no place in a Muslim society. Ever.

But people who murder other people for petty offenses in grotesquely and outrageously disproportionate methods [to the crime] do? Such evil shouldn't be allowed to oppress people at any time or anywhere, and the world would be better without it. Not Islam, just the evil/sadistic interpretations of "Islam."

 

[Meow Mix]

Why would you say that I am happy to say this? The fact is I am not happy that people are hurt or that some people choose to undermine the lives of their wives and children to pursue these selfish and sick desires. The fact is that I really do wish people could live happy productive lives and that society could embrace each and everyone of us. The fact is that with these punishments most logical people would think twice before engaging in these activities. That these laws prevent the instance from becoming an endemic and ruining the marriages of so many people and that it would force people to at least have some decency for others and close the door.

But there are people who would put their desires above anyone else and in the process harm each and everyone of us. So no, perhaps it's a cultural barrier but I see adultery as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Look I'm not talking about imposing a government on people that don't want it. Shariah is a binding agreement between people who agree with its principles and wish to be governed by them.

So would a non-Muslim be put to death for having sex in a spot where they could possibly be stumbled upon in the perfect Muslim state?

I just feel that I couldn't trust someone who believes it's okay to kill at all over an offense like that, but especially in the method prescribed for death. I feel that anyone who agrees with it is sadistic and sick, and again I mean nothing personal by it but if someone agrees with that I would actually be afraid if they ever had power over me or if I had to trust them to proverbially watch my back -- in exactly the same way I'd be uncomfortable morally trusting a gangbanger.

 

[Bismillah]

But people who murder other people for petty offenses in grotesquely and outrageously disproportionate methods [to the crime] do?

Therein lies the difference.

So would a non-Muslim be put to death for having sex in a spot where they could possibly be stumbled upon in the perfect Muslim state?

The punishment of Shariah are directed at Muslims. I don't know what the punishment would be for the same crime committed by non-Muslims.

I just feel that I couldn't trust someone who believes it's okay to kill at all over an offense like that, but especially in the method prescribed for death. I feel that anyone who agrees with it is sadistic and sick, and again I mean nothing personal by it but if someone agrees with that I would actually be afraid if they ever had power over me or if I had to trust them to proverbially watch my back -- in exactly the same way I'd be uncomfortable morally trusting a gangbanger.

Ok you don't think it's that big of an offense, no big deal you're not a Muslim. But then again you are missing the point of Shariah countries. The point is not to enforce punishments every day. These punishments are supposed to be few and far in between. This type of transgression undermines that very concept and destroys the lives of the families involved.

Family is one of the most important things in Islam and as the wife or husband it is their duty to safeguard and cherish it.

 

[kai]

No, it is true. Even comparing those leaders who diverged from the rulings of the Prophet and the rightly guided Caliphs Islamic society was almost always the most progressive society bar none. A simply comparison between Europe and China is significant enough to understand that it was the most humanistic society at its time.

And only when officials started diverging from Islamic teachings did we regress into a period of backwardness. Scholars were put on governmental salaries and thus dependent and biased, Muslims allowed nationalistic tendencies to fracture the Ummah and allow the establishment of emirates that contradicted basic Islamic politics. But bar none the worst tragedy was when the Imperialists imposed on Muslim lands secular laws that were not wanted and created such deep shifts in society that led to the absolute dismantlement of the Islamic era of progress.

If we are to ever rise back to our status of liberal forward thinking countries we must break from the oppressive yoke that further divides and incites violence in our countries.



No, it advanced until the crumbling of the Caliphate and external invasions threatened Muslim land. Only when we abandoned the Ummah did we stagnate in Islamic jurisprudence and a strong healthy society.


What I mean by secularization is the imposition of secular laws on Muslim lands and the banishment of Shariah from almost every Muslim country.

I am aware that there was a "golden age" of Empire around 7th to 13th century all Empires have them before they wane.

 

[kai]

No, quite sane thank you. I would worry about deviants who like to express such urges in public.

I would wonder what kind of sick person would support such unrepentant people perpetuating these acts in public.

Not me ,but i wouldnt kill them for it

 

[Meow Mix]

Therein lies the difference.

What about my woods example, say a couple is in the woods and comes by a waterfall and decides to consumate their love -- and it just SO happens that another group of people (against many odds) is walking through the same woods.

Death?

Is it righteous to put them to death, on top of that?

The punishment of Shariah are directed at Muslims. I don't know what the punishment would be for the same crime committed by non-Muslims.

Woe to anyone who submits themselves to such evil!

Ok you don't think it's that big of an offense, no big deal you're not a Muslim. But then again you are missing the point of Shariah countries. The point is not to enforce punishments every day. These punishments are supposed to be few and far in between. This type of transgression undermines that very concept and destroys the lives of the families involved.

Family is one of the most important things in Islam and as the wife or husband it is their duty to safeguard and cherish it.

You make murdering sound like taking the trash out in a cheery 50's American nuclear family neighborhood. I'm fairly sure that given the choice between trusting you with my life in some nuclear holocaust or attempting to go it alone I may choose the latter for fear of what you might find acceptable or be capable of doing.

 

[Bismillah]

I am aware that there was a "golden age" of Empire around 7th to 13th century all Empires have them before they wane.

Of course it is no coincidence that it was during this golden age that the principles of Islam were most rigorously enacted.