What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

[kai]

Because whenever Islam was practiced in antiquity it was one of the most liberal and progressive societies in the world and I have no doubt if continued to grow without foreign intervention it would still rank as such.

But that's strictly not true is it? in my opinion that's something of a myth, history tells us a very different story

 

[Caladan]

But that's strictly not true is it? in my opinion that's something of a myth, history tells us a very different story

People love to romanticize and idealize a legendary and glorious past. me? I'll be more practical, both your culture and my culture have achieved and turned the world over throughout history, however we live in the present, and both your culture and mine continue to do so. the past of our cultures should not be a legend and a romantic and comforting defence mechanism for us, especially if it is an excuse to believe in what we WANT to believe, and which will eventually betray us into mediocrity. instead, I think its far better and positive to act as a direct continuation of your society's past. the 'great' men 'of old' might be gone now, but many of the men and women at the front now, even if they are widely criticised perhaps will be remembered in the future as the 'great men and women' of our era.
what does it help me, if Muslims and Christians believe that king Solomon of Israel was the Wisest of man? or that Abraham brought monotheism to the world? I would much rather want these Muslims and Christians to understand that they need to come to terms with the fact that the same people of Israel their tradition idolizes are as influential today as they have been in a romantic and legendary past.
it would also be a fascinating epiphany for them to discover that if they have lived in that past, they could have been the enemies of Solomon or other figures of Jewish tradition and Israelite policies, just like they might be at odds with Israeli policies today.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote Abibi:

The society pre and post Islamic revelation were incomparable to the extreme. The treatment and care for widows, orphans, and the oppressed of society was something revolutionary not seen anywhere else in the world.

The sheer number of science and political treatises and the progress of these societies of undeniable. So I'm not sure how you can justify your own claim because it was only after the imposed secularization of Muslim communities that such violence and repression became evident.

Easy,it progressed to the Middle ages but went no further,from an outside perspective Islam has stagnated,as for secularization being imposed on Muslim communities,if you move to a secular country then you should accept secular government,other than that i'm not sure what you mean.

 

[England my lionheart]

No you most certainly are. If there are four honest witnesses that can attest not to something like kissing or hugging but "the most intimate details" then that is in the public and only abnormal people would choose to display such things in that context.

So are you saying it would be ok if you were Gay to take your Gay lover to meet your parents or openly show your love for your partner in public without repercussion,i think the four witness thing we know that even if you are an alledged Homosexual you are going to get punished.

You know i'm trying to get my head around Human beings discussing whether a Homosexual should be whipped stoned or thrown off a high building.

 

[Badran]

Look Badran if someone in the government or the military commits a crime then of course they should be punished, but that's not what you are talking about is it? your talking about things that you perceive as crimes, you think Operation cast lead was a crime in itself don't you?You think the blockade is a crime too dont you?

I'm talking about the obvious stuff, like the examples i gave you about white phosphorous, what the soldiers were instructed to do and so on. These are crimes aren't they? War doesn't justify any of those examples.

How about you Badran? two state solution or do you want it all?

It depends on what the Palestinian people want, as this is their decision to make, and its their lives. How i view the best solution personally, i can't decide until i have seriously studied this issue and its history, so that i can have all the information about certain things that will make a world of difference in what i would view the best and fairest solution.

However like i said, until then, i will support mainly what the Palestinian people want.

 

[kai]

I'm talking about the obvious stuff, like the examples i gave you about white phosphorous, what the soldiers were instructed to do and so on. These are crimes aren't they? War doesn't justify any of those examples.

There were in my opinion Crimes committed on both sides and both sides should be condemned and indeed were by the UN report into the incursion.

Here on RF though we only really get one cry of Foul and that's against the Israelis just as you have accused and rightly so the Israelis but as par for course among Muslims on RF you have not mentioned crimes committed by the Armed Forces of Gaza this presents a grossly one sided argument that will inevitably bring critical comment by people like myself who don't take it at face value.and know theres always two sides to a story.

The UN investigation i read was scathing of Israeli investigations into misconduct but found that with regards investigations into misconduct by Palestinian Authorities there was in fact no investigation at all and that both sides do seam to act with impunity.

Both Israel and Hamas have failed to meet their obligations under international law to conduct credible and independent investigations. “The Human Rights Council must therefore assess these domestic proceedings and report accordingly to the UN General Assembly and Security Council,” said Tayler. “The Security Council must take concrete and robust measures to ensure accountability for the perpetrators and justice for victims, and to this end consider the options at its disposal to break the cycle of impunity prevalent in this conflict, including by referring the situation in Gaza to the International Criminal Court,” concluded Tayler.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf
http://jfjfp.com/?p=17645




It depends on what the Palestinian people want, as this is their decision to make, and its their lives. How i view the best solution personally, i can't decide until i have seriously studied this issue and its history, so that i can have all the information about certain things that will make a world of difference in what i would view the best and fairest solution.

However like i said, until then, i will support mainly what the Palestinian people want.

so you are supporting what exactly?

 

[Badran]

There were in my opinion Crimes committed on both sides and both sides should be condemned and indeed were by the UN report into the incursion.

Here on RF though we only really get one cry of Foul and that's against the Israelis just as you have accused and rightly so the Israelis but as par for course among Muslims on RF you have not mentioned crimes committed by the Armed Forces of Gaza this presents a grossly one sided argument that will inevitably bring critical comment by people like myself who don't take it at face value.and know theres always two sides to a story.

The UN investigation i read was scathing of Israeli investigations into misconduct but found that with regards investigations into misconduct by Palestinian Authorities there was in fact no investigation at all and that both sides do seam to act with impunity.

Both Israeli government and Hamas should be punished for what they did, for what they did to civilians, not that there is any comparison, but still of course both deserve it.

The reason i focused more on Israel is because i was curious about what you personally thought about people on Israel's side, government and military like i said who are responsible.

so you are supporting what exactly?

Problem is, which is probably a short coming on my behalf, i'm not positive about what exactly the majority of Palestinian people want. I know of course some want a two state solution, and that a few are not really satisfied with that.

What i know is that people were and are being taken out of their homes, were and are being killed, and are suffering in many forms. The best scenario that i can say depending on my information, and the position we're in, is the two state solution, including returning people to their homes, and the governments answering for what they did like i told you. At least the violence will supposedly stop.

To be perfectly honest though, it doesn't seem that this solution will work, or that it will accomplish much. I see the Israeli government (same goes for Hamas), to be not interested in peace. I believe as long as those are in the position they're in, nothing good will ever come.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I'm not talking about sex in public,i'm talking about the treatment of Homosexuals within the Muslim faith,hey don't worry though,there is another religion that is almost on a par with yours.

Anyway Islamonline says this:

As to the issue of how the homosexual person is judged in an Islamic State, the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him differed among themselves on this issue, and this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example, in the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death.

Based on the above fact, we can conclude that, the judge is invested with full discretion as to whether this man is to be thrown from a high place or not, as a punishment for his crime. However, if the man survives death fall, the judge has the right to sentence him to death.”



Read more: Death Fall as Punishment for Homosexuality - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar​

I confirm your claim.
However, it's just the same as "having sex in public", because this punishment can not be applied without four trustworthy witnesses on the "sexual act".

So are you saying it would be ok if you were Gay to take your Gay lover to meet your parents or openly show your love for your partner in public without repercussion,i think the four witness thing we know that even if you are an alledged Homosexual you are going to get punished.

I don't think so. (based on my interpretation of the Sharia, which clearly states the necessity of the existence of 4 witnesses)

 

[England my lionheart]

I confirm your claim.
However, it's just the same as "having sex in public", because this punishment can not be applied without four trustworthy witnesses on the "sexual act".

Still a very harsh punishment,perhaps a £200 fine but throwing someone from a high place,stoning or lashing,Homosexuals were punished here too but with imprisonment,i thought that was bad enough.


I don't think so. (based on my interpretation of the Sharia, which clearly states the necessity of the existence of 4 witnesses)

Well clearly thats not true for all of Islam,look what Iran has done

 

[Bismillah]

Yes i do

Then why did you ask why Fatah and Hamas didn't create a magical two state government after the withdrawal?

Dont tell me Hamas is not doing it Islamic jihad is or some other group that mean Hamas is not in control of Gaza

...that's backtracking and shifting from Hamas firing rockets to them losing control

on and on it goes tit for tat, its the israelis is the cry as thay fire off another rocket

Obviously it's tit for tat and obviously both sides are to blame. Just because Hamas sees Israel as culpable you refuse to see that Israel also shifts the blame back at Hamas. So why the unconditioned support or statements like "Hamas fired dozens of mortors at Israel".

Because its impossible to negotiate a lasting peace with a fractured people with at least two governing organisations that are enemies

You do realize the West Bank and Gaza are controlled by different entities? As in it is quite possible to make peace with one party and then deal with the other. As in, there is no reason to justify the way Israel is dragging its feet when dealing with Fatah.

As in if Fatah made some progress through peaceful negotiations Hamas's tactics would instantly lose favor in Gaza. As in the only way to a peaceful reconciliation is to show that peace works, bottom line.

Israel didn't coordinate with Fatah and Hamas so they not noticing the opportunity for a peaceful Gaza and their people had a civil war and Hamas was so upset about wining it they decided to rocket attack Israel on a daily basis. that's a ridiculous excuse.

I can't parse this statement.
There was a civil war prior to the disengagement of Gaza.
Fatah and Hamas were already fighting before and the PA had fallen apart. At this critical moment Israel withdrew from Gaza, without any coordination with Fatah officials, and Hamas seized and ousted Fatah.

Hamas blamed Fatah for an undemocratic coup, which it clearly was supported by the West and Israel, and also celebrated the withdrawal of the IDF labeling it as a victory. They then continued attacks against Israel, in part for their support of Fatah and weapons aid.

Sorry that's not an excuse that's facts. I cannot understand why Israel wouldn't want to talk with Fatah officials and it is tragic that they allowed Hamas to claim victory.

All these posts and all we get is Israel this and Israel that, i produce a link that shows even after operation cast lead Hamas and it cronies are still firing rockets at Israel with even two dozen in this month,and what comes back? but they have only fired 5, the rest was fired by Islamic jihad and others i suppose. Well that's all right then!!!

Nope, I never justified it. Just pointed out your exaggeration and the fact that Hamas is NOT in favor of those attacks. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit with your one dimensional view of Hamas as nothing but idiotic gunmen because they clearly understand the ramifications of their actions.

Then again I could point to how you keep on labeling Hamas and pointing to Hamas to divert from the West Bank. So again I ask, if you want to talk about peace why do you keep looking at the irrelevant party.

I ask Muslims point blank do they want a two state solution what's wrong with a yes or no. i tell you what's wrong i don't think most Muslims want a two state solution!!
I think they want it all. and further more i think its a little dishonest that when someone agrees with a two state solution they are labelled "ZIONIST" like its a swear word or something, and of course technically you are a Zionist in the broad sense of the word.

Frankly I could care less with the semantics idiotic Western leaders impose on the topic with "bilateral talks" "two state solution" "getting the process back on track". The process has been getting back on track before Rabin was shot.

I'll tell you what I want Kai. I want a solution. I could care less what it is, but I believe the best way is the so called two state talks. But then again, I know that these talks are going nowhere.

These talks are undermined from the start. Every settlement, every Palestinian kicked out of Jerusalem, every refugee in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon is a testimony to the failing of these talks.

So if these talks will ever work, the West needs to finally act as a neutral arbitrator. It needs to stop supporting Israel until it halts settlements and discusses some of the most important issue upfront instead of during the vague "final peace process" that Oslo promised and lied.

Because as it is right now, I wouldn't have trouble labeling these talks as a Zionist's best dream. Stalled talks and indirect negotiations while every day more Palestinian land is seized. Pathetic.

So heres the dilemma how the heck is a Muslim going to openly endorse a two state solution which supports the establishment of the Jewish state without feeling he or she is doing something wrong?

There is nothing wrong with supporting Israel as long as it recognizes the right of a sovereign Palestine and respects the land and property of Palestinians.

n my opinion the biggest double standard of all is they way the Muslim world treats Palestinians i have never seen a thread on RF condemning the injustices perpetrated on Palestinians in Arab lands. They hold them up as their beloved brothers and sisters being trodden on by those evil Israelis and tread all over them themselves.

So to divert from the now you shift back, again, to the past? Because trust me, from what I've seen every Muslim on these boards pretty much despises the autocratic Arab leaders. And I believe many Muslims go much further than nationalistic barriers to care about others, it's the authoritarian leaders who do not.

But I also despise the fact of how these Arabs got their power in the first place, but that again is irrelevant.

 

[Bismillah]

But that's strictly not true is it? in my opinion that's something of a myth, history tells us a very different story

No, it is true. Even comparing those leaders who diverged from the rulings of the Prophet and the rightly guided Caliphs Islamic society was almost always the most progressive society bar none. A simply comparison between Europe and China is significant enough to understand that it was the most humanistic society at its time.

And only when officials started diverging from Islamic teachings did we regress into a period of backwardness. Scholars were put on governmental salaries and thus dependent and biased, Muslims allowed nationalistic tendencies to fracture the Ummah and allow the establishment of emirates that contradicted basic Islamic politics. But bar none the worst tragedy was when the Imperialists imposed on Muslim lands secular laws that were not wanted and created such deep shifts in society that led to the absolute dismantlement of the Islamic era of progress.

If we are to ever rise back to our status of liberal forward thinking countries we must break from the oppressive yoke that further divides and incites violence in our countries.

Easy,it progressed to the Middle ages but went no further,from an outside perspective Islam has stagnated,as for secularization being imposed on Muslim communities,if you move to a secular country then you should accept secular government,other than that i'm not sure what you mean.

No, it advanced until the crumbling of the Caliphate and external invasions threatened Muslim land. Only when we abandoned the Ummah did we stagnate in Islamic jurisprudence and a strong healthy society.


What I mean by secularization is the imposition of secular laws on Muslim lands and the banishment of Shariah from almost every Muslim country.

 

[Bismillah]

So are you saying it would be ok if you were Gay to take your Gay lover to meet your parents or openly show your love for your partner in public without repercussion,

What? Homosexuals and their dealings with their parents is a familial matter, not a state one.

What do you mean by showing your love for your partner? I'm not sure why you are tending to muddle things up, the ruling is clear.

Sex in public results in capital punishment. Period.

i think the four witness thing we know that even if you are an alledged Homosexual you are going to get punished.

Which is the failing of the people not the law.

You know i'm trying to get my head around Human beings discussing whether a Homosexual should be whipped stoned or thrown off a high building.

Why do you keep isolating it to Homosexuals? You realize most schools of thought treat the matter as a branch from adultery? And I'm trying to wrap around my head why a sane human would choose to display such intimacies of their life in public.

Only someone who seeks to corrode the morality of society most assuredly.

Because you are free to do what you will in your private homes. Islam guarantees the sanctity of the home and ensures its privacy. Even if it is suspected that the inhabitants are engaged in non kosher activities, we have no right to intrude.

 

[England my lionheart]

OK i highlighted Homosexuals because Iran for example proudly boast there are none in that Country,basically they were all hung,so lets got down the Adultery route,if you get caught you will be punished,true or not true?

 

[Commoner]

Sex in public results in capital punishment. Period.

Are you insane?

@Badran: could you comment on this please? What do you think about this?

 

[Bismillah]

Are you insane?

No, quite sane thank you. I would worry about deviants who like to express such urges in public.

I would wonder what kind of sick person would support such unrepentant people perpetuating these acts in public.

 

[Bismillah]

OK i highlighted Homosexuals because Iran for example proudly boast there are none in that Country,basically they were all hung,so lets got down the Adultery route,if you get caught you will be punished,true or not true?

4 witnesses in good standing? Y/N?

 

[Meow Mix]

No, quite sane thank you. I would worry about deviants who like to express such urges in public.

You don't think it's a bit on the harsh side to murder them?

What if lovers are, say, out in the woods and there's a reasonable expectation for no one to be around and they find the scenery romantic? Death for them?

What about a backseat quickie if someone happens to walk by and see? Death?

You don't find that the least bit insane?

 

[Caladan]

No, quite sane thank you. I would worry about deviants who like to express such urges in public.

I would wonder what kind of sick person would support such unrepentant people perpetuating these acts in public.

I've probably violated capital punishment offences in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and a dozen other Muslim states by the time I was 22.

 

[England my lionheart]

4 witnesses in good standing? Y/N?

So you are trying to tell me that all the people executed for Adultery in Saudi,Pakistan,Iran etc all had four witnesses who saw the actual act,no way.

It gets worse though doesn't it,because the Woman get buried up to her neck whereas the Man only to his waste,thats of course if there are four witnesses,its nothing less than murder.

 

[Meow Mix]

So you are trying to tell me that all the people executed for Adultery in Saudi,Pakistan,Iran etc all had four witnesses who saw the actual act,no way.

It gets worse though doesn't it,because the Woman get buried up to her neck whereas the Man only to his waste,thats of course if there are four witnesses,its nothing less than murder.

Agreed. It's utterly reprehensible and indefensible. Muslim-majority countries of today with the possible exception of Turkey desperately need either another Golden Age or an Englightenment Age. I'm sure there are reasonable and moral people there but it appears as though immoral brigands are running the show, so I feel sorry for them.