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What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

Bismillah

Submit
But you show such an interest? surely you must desire something for the Palestinians i know its not easy because if you say you support the two state solution that technically makes you a Zionist.So is it true that in reality no Muslim can really support a two state solution? because your supporting the existance of the state of Israel that makes them a zionist doesnt it?

The Palestinians in the diaspora dont have much of a life i admit, well not those that live in camps in the Arab world that is.

Yeah I show an interest because it is Muslims who are suffering. And I do not care about whether Israel exists or not because common sense establishes the presence of Israel whether people like it or not.

I'm not sure why you're trying to say that I'm not in support of a two state solution? I said I'm in support of peace in Palestine, but the two state solution has done an absolutely nothing for the Palestinians.

Like I said, empty words are not appreciated, such as "two state solution", when the entire process is undermined from the start.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Israel left Gaza because it became to costly to occupy. It also left the Palestinians in a very divided state between those who claimed peace works and those who claim that it doesn't. The Fatah government was kept in the dark and the unilateral withdrawal left a vacuum that Hamas exploited.
Yep not to celebrate and form a Palestinian state waiting for the same for their brothers in the west bank though, no lets fire kassams


link?
Israel bombs three militant sites in Gaza in response to rocket attacks | World news | The Guardian
And what exactly is the relevance of this? You were talking about a two state solution so why did you ignore Fatah and then instead focus on Hamas?

Because do you seriously expect Israel to disengage from the west bank after the Gaza debacle without some kind of assurance it too isnt going to be turned into a rocket launching pad.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You will have to give me some instances where i am distinctly actively ignoring or supporting criminal acts by Israeli soldiers, what i usualy see is threads condemning Israel after the die is cast by Hamas who slink off and hide amongst the population once Palestinians are being killed and homes demolished they can then jump up on top of the rubble and cry "we have won" ! and then cry crocodile tears over what those criminal Israelis have done.

You haven't supported criminal acts by Israel, i didn't say that. The only problem (which i think i understand why now) is that at least you seem way more inclined to criticize Hamas than to criticize Israel. If i understood what you're saying, is that you see people all criticizing Israel while ignoring what Hamas did, so thats why you're more inclined to point at Hamas. If thats the case, i can understand that, although i don't feel that people are ignoring Hamas at all, they're constantly under criticism.

Having said all that, and clarifying that i totally understand what you mean about Hamas and their role in this problem, and their tactics in using the Palestinian people to gain sympathy an so on, i'd just like to know something.

Do you want to see the people responsible on the Israeli side punished? You do support what happened with Saddam right? If so do you feel the same in this situation? Putting all those responsible in the government and the military and all, up for trail to meet there well deserved punishment from the international community? Or do you think war justifies all this?
 
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kai

ragamuffin
Yeah I show an interest because it is Muslims who are suffering. And I do not care about whether Israel exists or not because common sense establishes the presence of Israel whether people like it or not.

I'm not sure why you're trying to say that I'm not in support of a two state solution? I said I'm in support of peace in Palestine, but the two state solution has done an absolutely nothing for the Palestinians.

Like I said, empty words are not appreciated, such as "two state solution", when the entire process is undermined from the start.

I am not saying you are not a supporter of a two state solution i was asking you point blankly if you were or not, and it hasn't done anything for the Palestinians because it hasn't been implemented has it .

I think the Gaza disengagement was a golden opportunity wasted there's a saying you know that goes the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
 

kai

ragamuffin
You haven't supported criminal acts by Israel, i didn't say that. The only problem (which i think i understand why now) is that at least you seem way more inclined to criticize Hamas than to criticize Israel. If i understood what you're saying, is that you see people all criticizing Israel while ignoring what Hamas did, so thats why you're more inclined to point at Hamas. If thats the case, i can understand that, although i don't feel that people are ignoring Hamas at all, they're constantly under criticism. Yes yes yes and not on RF their not not by Muslims anyway

Having said all that, and clarifying that i totally understand what you mean about Hamas and their role in this problem, and their tactics in using the Palestinian people to gain sympathy an so on, i'd just like to know something.

Do you want to see the people responsible on the Israeli side punished? You do support what happened with Saddam right? If so do you feel the same in this situation? Putting all those responsible in the government and the military and all, up for trail to meet there well deserved punishment from the international community? Or do you think war justifies all this?

On trial for what? you will have to be more specific, are there international charges pending ? on whom?
 

Bismillah

Submit
England said:
Apostates from Islam are punished for not wanting to be a Muslim anymore,in its mildest form like in Egypt the punishment is no recognition or identity,of course it means death in the home of Islam Saudi Arabia.
So Islam at its core is Saudi Arabia to you?

Sexuality, BBC News - Gay Muslims made homeless by family violence this is in the UK,in other places it means death.
While I do not agree with hurting your children, for the sake of the rest of the family it is appropriate to remove a member who is unrepentant and unwilling to change if he continues in these activities.

Homosexuality is a grave sin and it would be wise to remove such an influence from affecting either younger children or indirectly supporting it.

Adultery/Sina,there are some extreme punishments for this one too,stoning is extreme but it is a crime in Islam which you obviously know
Punishment is not the goal of Islam

"Refrain from enforcing hudud on Muslims as much as you can. If you find a way-out for a Muslim, let him or her go; as, it is better for the Imam (ruler) to wrongly forgive than to wrongly punish."


However in the case of abnormal people who would engage in banned acts in the public so that four people are present deserve such a punishment, not for the people specifically, but to discourage such acts from ruining and ruling a society.
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
On trial for what? you will have to be more specific, are there international charges pending ? on whom?

Thats exactly the problem, there aren't any. I mean its just fascinating that there isn't any backlash to whats being done, serious backlash that is. On the contrary, they're receiving support in all sorts of ways.

So i was more asking you that don't you think that surely some people in both the government and the military, deserve very well to be punished for their crimes?

And to shed light on what you're were discussing with Abibi, surely we can't just do whatever compromising solution and thats it. Some people have got to answer for what they've done.
 
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Bismillah

Submit
kai said:
Yep not to celebrate and form a Palestinian state waiting for the same for their brothers in the west bank though, no lets fire kassams

Kai I'm not sure you understand the deep divisions between Fatah and Hamas.


Secondly of those "dozens of rockets fired by Hamas" I can only find that five actually fired from Hamas. It also stated

Article said:
There have been around two dozen rockets fired into Israel this month. On Monday Hamas began talks with other militant factions to urge them to stop launching rockets amid fears of a new war with Israel.

So I can only assume that Hamas is concerned and understands the implications of its attacks. Furthermore, the only reason they would launch such rockets then would be because of what they see as Israeli attacks of their sovereignty, which happen all too frequently. Such as assassination of Hamas leaders and bombing of Hamas sites or within Gaza itself.

Because do you seriously expect Israel to disengage from the west bank after the Gaza debacle without some kind of assurance it too isnt going to be turned into a rocket launching pad.
What? Is this question serious kai? Fatah has not done enough to show that they are for a peaceful resolution? I do not understand how people think peace is possible without differentiating, at least, the different parties.

Fatah has secured its borders to an extent never seen before, to the extent that Israeli dignitaries now rely and trust Fatah protection when visiting the West Bank.

So yeah, comparing Fatah and Hamas is outrageous solely for the reason of the civil war between them. Let alone every other disagreement between the two.

And if Israel and Fatah had greater coordination between them during the withdrawal then you can look at the West Bank to see the differences in rule that would have been administered in Gaza.

Of course, no one is interested in that are they now? They are interested in ignoring the possibility of peace.

and it hasn't done anything for the Palestinians because it hasn't been implemented has it .
I disagree Abbass has implemented it quite admirably. Perhaps now would be the time to confirm that peace is something that works before Palestinians resort to violence to cease all settlements.

I think the Gaza disengagement was a golden opportunity wasted there's a saying you know that goes the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
An opportunity wasted because Israel didn't coordinate with Fatah and Hamas took advantageous of it, oh I agree. But let's look at the present and let's again shift our focus to the party that advocates peace, so that the West can show the Palestinians they are sincere.
 
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Bismillah

Submit
The only way for peace is for the U.S to, for the first time, seriously look toward peace and stop its unconditional support for Israel.

To support Israel as they take land illegally every day leaves no room for negotiation, period. A wall dividing Palestinians, ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem, and the arming of often violent settlers just goes to show the steps away from peace Israel has taken.

Fatah has taken steps and reached out and made major concessions, none of which interest Israel. Perhaps because they have decided that peace is no longer in its interests as long as it continues its expansionist enterprises.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
So Islam at its core is Saudi Arabia to you?

No,the Qur'an is

While I do not agree with hurting your children, for the sake of the rest of the family it is appropriate to remove a member who is unrepentant and unwilling to change if he continues in these activities.


Homosexuality is a grave sin and it would be wise to remove such an influence from affecting either younger children or indirectly supporting it.

Homosexuality is natural,have you ever wondered why a Muslim, knowing what the punishment is for being themselves would realise their true sexuality,to me its pretty obvious,same goes for Adultery.

Punishment is not the goal of Islam

"Refrain from enforcing hudud on Muslims as much as you can. If you find a way-out for a Muslim, let him or her go; as, it is better for the Imam (ruler) to wrongly forgive than to wrongly punish."

However in the case of abnormal people who would engage in banned acts in the public so that four people are present deserve such a punishment, not for the people specifically, but to discourage such acts from ruining and ruling a society.

Abnormal people,what is abnormal about love? there are some people on this Forum who fits into this view,strange thing though,they seem pretty compos mentis to me.

Punishment is not the goal of Islam,what is its goal then,to cast you into Hellfire if you do not accept it,believe that anything else other than Islam is wrong,make the world a better place? one look at Islam wherever its implemented in its entirity is it doesn't work,whatever Islams real goal is i'm soooo glad i'm not part of it.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Abnormal people,what is abnormal about love? there are some people on this Forum who fits into this view,strange thing though,they seem pretty compos mentis to me.

It's pretty damn abnormal to have intercourse in public. If people wish to pursue their activities in private that is ok, but the point is to prevent people from spreading negative influences on society as a whole (which just isn't confined to homosexuality as you seem to think it is)

Punishment is not the goal of Islam,what is its goal then,to cast you into Hellfire if you do not accept it,believe that anything else other than Islam is wrong,make the world a better place? one look at Islam wherever its implemented in its entirity is it doesn't work,whatever Islams real goal is i'm soooo glad i'm not part of it.

The goal of Islam is to lead a productive happier life and in the hereafter.

And please do not give me "wherever Islam was implemented" because you look at the many Muslim states today the practice of Shariah was abandoned, Islamic jurisprudence ended, and the invaders enforced secular beliefs that didn't mesh with the society's wishes and imposed puppet rulers and arbitrary boundaries to separate the Muslim world and allow nationlistic desires to triumph over the common good of the now defunct Ummah.

Because whenever Islam was practiced in antiquity it was one of the most liberal and progressive societies in the world and I have no doubt if continued to grow without foreign intervention it would still rank as such.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Punishment is not the goal of Islam,what is its goal then,to cast you into Hellfire if you do not accept it,believe that anything else other than Islam is wrong,make the world a better place? one look at Islam wherever its implemented in its entirity is it doesn't work,whatever Islams real goal is i'm soooo glad i'm not part of it.

You might want to read more about the history of Christianity and Judaism to realize that "religion-generally" is not to be blamed for the stupid acts committed by its followers and recorded in all history books.

Just like any other religion, Islam's goal is not to cast people in hellfire, nor to reject others beliefs. On contrary, we respect all beliefs, accept them, and are tolerant to them. I'm not really concerned about what happens today, but more about what Islam represents to me.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
It's pretty damn abnormal to have intercourse in public. If people wish to pursue their activities in private that is ok, but the point is to prevent people from spreading negative influences on society as a whole (which just isn't confined to homosexuality as you seem to think it is)

I know it isn't confined to Homosexuality but we know how Islam views Homosexuality


The goal of Islam is to lead a productive happier life and in the hereafter.

In what way?

And please do not give me "wherever Islam was implemented" because you look at the many Muslim states today the practice of Shariah was abandoned, Islamic jurisprudence ended, and the invaders enforced secular beliefs that didn't mesh with the society's wishes and imposed puppet rulers and arbitrary boundaries to separate the Muslim world and allow nationlistic desires to triumph over the common good of the now defunct Ummah.

What invaders? the big bad west? the great Shaitan?

Because whenever Islam was practiced in antiquity it was one of the most liberal and progressive societies in the world and I have no doubt if continued to grow without foreign intervention it would still rank as such.

I would like to see some evidence of Islams progressive nature,from what i've seen in history doesn't really back this up
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
How do you find having sex in public, "normal"?!:sarcastic

I'm not talking about sex in public,i'm talking about the treatment of Homosexuals within the Muslim faith,hey don't worry though,there is another religion that is almost on a par with yours.

Anyway Islamonline says this:


As to the issue of how the homosexual person is judged in an Islamic State, the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him differed among themselves on this issue, and this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example, in the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death.

Based on the above fact, we can conclude that, the judge is invested with full discretion as to whether this man is to be thrown from a high place or not, as a punishment for his crime. However, if the man survives death fall, the judge has the right to sentence him to death.”



Read more: Death Fall as Punishment for Homosexuality - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
 

Bismillah

Submit
England said:
I would like to see some evidence of Islams progressive nature,from what i've seen in history doesn't really back this up

Historically, women played an important role in the foundation of many Islamic educational institutions, such as Fatima al-Fihri's founding of the University of Al Karaouine in 859 CE. This continued through to the Ayyubid dynasty in the 12th and 13th centuries, when 160 mosques and madrasahs were established in Damascus, 26 of which were funded by women through the Waqf (charitable trust or trust law) system. Half of all the royal patrons for these institutions were also women.[25]
According to the Sunni scholar Ibn Asakir in the 12th century, there were various opportunities for female education in what is known as the medieval Islamic world. He writes that women could study, earn ijazahs (academic degrees), and qualify as scholars (ulamā’) and teachers. This was especially the case for learned and scholarly families, who wanted to ensure the highest possible education for both their sons and daughters.[26]Female education in the Islamic world was inspired by Muhammad's wives: Khadijah, a successful businesswoman, and Aisha, a renowned hadith scholar and military leader. The education allowed was often restricted to religious instruction. According to a hadith attributed to Muhammad, he praised the women of Medina because of their desire for religious knowledge:[27]
Women were employed in a wide range of commercial activities and diverse occupations[32] in the primary sector (as farmers, for example), secondary sector (as construction workers, dyers, spinners, etc.) and tertiary sector (as investors, doctors, nurses, presidents of guilds, brokers, peddlers, lenders, scholars, etc.).[33] Muslim women also held a monopoly over certain branches of the textile industry,[32] the largest and most specialized and market-oriented industry at the time, in occupations such as spinning, dyeing, and embroidery. In comparison, female property rights and wage labour were relatively uncommon in Europe until the Industrial Revolution in the 18th and 19th centuries.[34]
In the 12th century, the famous Islamic philosopher and qadi (judge) Ibn Rushd, known to the West as Averroes, claimed that women were equal to men in all respects and possessed equal capacities to shine in peace and in war, citing examples of female warriors among the Arabs, Greeks and Africans to support his case.[35] In early Muslim history, examples of notable female Muslims who fought during the Muslim conquests and Fitna (civil wars) as soldiers or generals included Nusaybah Bint k’ab Al Maziniyyah[36] a.k.a. Umm Amarah, Aisha,[37] Kahula and Wafeira.[38]
A unique feature of medieval Muslim hospitals was the role of female staff, who were rarely employed in hospitals elsewhere in the world. Medieval Muslim hospitals commonly employed female nurses. Muslim hospitals were also the first to employ female physicians, the most famous being two female physicians from the Banu Zuhr family who served the Almohad ruler Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur in the 12th century.[39]

Abu Bakr

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.[7][8]"[/quote]

Ummar al Khattab

"I will be harsh and stern against the aggressor,[40] but I will be a pillar of strength for the weak.

I will not calm down until I will put one cheek of a tyrant on the ground and the other under my feet, and for the poor and weak, I will put my cheek on the ground
."

The society pre and post Islamic revelation were incomparable to the extreme. The treatment and care for widows, orphans, and the oppressed of society was something revolutionary not seen anywhere else in the world.

The sheer number of science and political treatises and the progress of these societies of undeniable. So I'm not sure how you can justify your own claim because it was only after the imposed secularization of Muslim communities that such violence and repression became evident.
 
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Bismillah

Submit
England said:
I'm not talking about sex in public

No you most certainly are. If there are four honest witnesses that can attest not to something like kissing or hugging but "the most intimate details" then that is in the public and only abnormal people would choose to display such things in that context.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a person who is very critical of the Western philosophies, values and systems. I am very critical of the colonization of the Muslim countries and the consequent effects. I am very critical of the unconditional support of the majority of Western governments to Israel, of the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan by Western armies, of the sanctions on the Iranians and other Muslim nations, of banning the headscarf in schools and governmental buildings, of the war on Islam in media, etc. This is not demonization. This is called reality. The Muslim should understand the surrounding reality. The Muslim should save no effort in expressing his principles. Does this mean I am not critical of the many Muslim backward and unjust practices? Not at all. On the contrary, the main focus is how Muslims should act. And to understand how Muslim should act, we must understand the reality, returning to the original point. Are the Western values and policies towards Muslims the only component of the reality? Of course not. We play the biggest role in this sad reality of ours. But again, it doesn't mean we sit back pretending as if there are no attacks on our religion and its followers and put all the blame on Muslims. And it doesn't mean we use the West to be higher, etc. Muslims are blamed for sure, the biggest blame is on them but we should put everything in its perspective.

Sahar, i wasn't referring to you. i find you to be fair and balanced. and i agree that our focus should be on ourselves. :)

And as I said in the other thread, we can review the thousands of threads about Islam and see who attack and who defend. Unfortunately, Muslims are in the defensive position, most of the time.

indeed we are. it's unfortunate that the worst actions of misguided Muslims are the most noticed.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Thats exactly the problem, there aren't any. I mean its just fascinating that there isn't any backlash to whats being done, serious backlash that is. On the contrary, they're receiving support in all sorts of ways.

So i was more asking you that don't you think that surely some people in both the government and the military, deserve very well to be punished for their crimes?

And to shed light on what you're were discussing with Abibi, surely we can't just do whatever compromising solution and thats it. Some people have got to answer for what they've done.

Look Badran if someone in the government or the military commits a crime then of course they should be punished, but that's not what you are talking about is it? your talking about things that you perceive as crimes, you think Operation cast lead was a crime in itself don't you?You think the blockade is a crime too dont you?

How about you Badran? two state solution or do you want it all?
 
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kai

ragamuffin

Kai I'm not sure you understand the deep divisions between Fatah and Hamas.
Yes i do

Secondly of those "dozens of rockets fired by Hamas" I can only find that five actually fired from Hamas. It also stated

Dont tell me Hamas is not doing it Islamic jihad is or some other group that mean Hamas is not in control of Gaza

So I can only assume that Hamas is concerned and understands the implications of its attacks. Furthermore, the only reason they would launch such rockets then would be because of what they see as Israeli attacks of their sovereignty, which happen all too frequently. Such as assassination of Hamas leaders and bombing of Hamas sites or within Gaza itself.
on and on it goes tit for tat, its the israelis is the cry as thay fire off another rocket
What? Is this question serious kai? Fatah has not done enough to show that they are for a peaceful resolution? I do not understand how people think peace is possible without differentiating, at least, the different parties.
Because its impossible to negotiate a lasting peace with a fractured people with at least two governing organisations that are enemies
Fatah has secured its borders to an extent never seen before, to the extent that Israeli dignitaries now rely and trust Fatah protection when visiting the West Bank. Great start

So yeah, comparing Fatah and Hamas is outrageous solely for the reason of the civil war between them. Let alone every other disagreement between the two. Agree but who is representing the Palestinians?

And if Israel and Fatah had greater coordination between them during the withdrawal then you can look at the West Bank to see the differences in rule that would have been administered in Gaza.

Of course, no one is interested in that are they now? They are interested in ignoring the possibility of peace.

I disagree Abbass has implemented it quite admirably. Perhaps now would be the time to confirm that peace is something that works before Palestinians resort to violence to cease all settlements.

An opportunity wasted because Israel didn't coordinate with Fatah and Hamas took advantageous of it, oh I agree. But let's look at the present and let's again shift our focus to the party that advocates peace, so that the West can show the Palestinians they are sincere.

Israel didn't coordinate with Fatah and Hamas so they not noticing the opportunity for a peaceful Gaza and their people had a civil war and Hamas was so upset about wining it they decided to rocket attack Israel on a daily basis. that's a ridiculous excuse.



All these posts and all we get is Israel this and Israel that, i produce a link that shows even after operation cast lead Hamas and it cronies are still firing rockets at Israel with even two dozen in this month,and what comes back? but they have only fired 5, the rest was fired by Islamic jihad and others i suppose. Well that's all right then!!!

I suggest that The disengagement from Gaza was a golden opportunity wasted for the Palestinians what do i get? Its the Israelis they didn't coordinate with Fatah and Hamas?????? come on please!

I ask Muslims point blank do they want a two state solution what's wrong with a yes or no. i tell you what's wrong i don't think most Muslims want a two state solution!!
I think they want it all. and further more i think its a little dishonest that when someone agrees with a two state solution they are labelled "ZIONIST" like its a swear word or something, and of course technically you are a Zionist in the broad sense of the word.

So heres the dilemma how the heck is a Muslim going to openly endorse a two state solution which supports the establishment of the Jewish state without feeling he or she is doing something wrong?

n my opinion the biggest double standard of all is they way the Muslim world treats Palestinians i have never seen a thread on RF condemning the injustices perpetrated on Palestinians in Arab lands. They hold them up as their beloved brothers and sisters being trodden on by those evil Israelis and tread all over them themselves.
 
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