ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
And, as always with you, what it comes down to is "everything I say is right and if you disagree you are irrational".
Yep, that's a totally rational position. Have a nice day.
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What Can Atheism Lead To?
- Thread starter Kilgore Trout
- Start date
And, as always with you, what it comes down to is "everything I say is right and if you disagree you are irrational".
Yep, that's a totally rational position. Have a nice day.
Hitchey
Member
LOL
... and perhaps fewer road fatalities.
footprints
Well-Known Member
And to you too... you really have made my day, Thank you.
Cited, but not provided.
I will, as soon as you can provide this imaginary census of yours.
I already mentioned that I used the word census wrong, and the fact that you keep arguing about this census just shows us how little you actually know.
I did some research so I'll spell it out for ya.
No census has been made in Sweden since 1990.
No census, or civil register has ever registered religious affiliation in Sweden, thus polls is the only source of information we've got when it comes to these things.
However, I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt, so I'll wait until you provide your source before I dismiss your argument as sheer ignorance.
In the meantime, I'll provide this:
Source:
- You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more.
will get back to this once I got the right to post links.
Even if we go by the lowest estimate (46%) it would only allow for a christian population of 54% which entirely defeats your argument that 70-80% of the population are lutheran christians. This is also discounting other minorities which would bring the number even further down.
Of course you could move the goalposts and claim that it is still (note: with the most conservative estimates around) a majority of the population that is religious, which is entirely irrelevant as the original claim was that Sweden was one of the countries with the largest percentage of nonbelievers, not that Sweden had a non-religious majority (which according to most polls I've seen, it does, but lets ignore that for now).
Historically though, I'd have to say that Sweden has hardly been a shining beacon of secularism and religious freedom. As secularism is a relatively recent thing, (for instance, converting from the state religion to non-christian religions was illegal until 1951 if memory serves. And as have already been pointed out, automatic membership was given to the church to everyone until 1996.
linwood
Well-Known Member
NO,I sdidn`t.
You have twisted my words and anyone who is reading this thread can plainly see that.
What do you hope to achieve?
You`ve given no evidence at all.
You keep babbling about the Swedish census but I haven`t seen you post it although I`ve asked at least once.
Coyuld you please cite the source you are referring to?
Link the Swedish census here please or admit you`ve not read it yourself.
Yes that`s me.
Shooting myself in the foot.
Understand that I do not have the same ego problems you apparently have.
When I am shown to be wrong I gladly even happily admit it.
It means I`ve learned something.
You should try it sometime.
Yes, Understand what a census is.
What I don`t understand is why you keep saying you`ve provided the Swedish census as evidence when in fact you have not.
Could you please link your reference to this census here so I may examine your evidence.
I have done so with the evidence I`ve provided
Could you please cite your sources?
I don`t care where you get it just post it here.
This is the way debate is done here.
I post my evidence ,you post yours.,
So far you have none.
No actually you haven`t unless I missed it in which case I`d appreciate you citing the post number where you`ve posted this census.
Thank you.
Which is...where?
Can you post it perhaps?
I`d love to read it.
Please post it as so far you`ve posted no evidence I can find.
You`re ignorance is impressive!
I`m truly amazed.
Please post your evidence here in this thread where we have been discussing it.
Could you?
If not why not?
Do you understand how this debate discussion thing is done?
Have you even read the evidence you claim to have?
I already have.
You decided to twist them into your preconceived fantasy.
I can`t help you`re shortcomings, although I`m truly trying.
Apparently not.
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footprints
Well-Known Member
Cited, but not provided.
I will, as soon as you can provide this imaginary census of yours.
I already mentioned that I used the word census wrong, and the fact that you keep arguing about this census just shows us how little you actually know.
I did some research so I'll spell it out for ya.
No census has been made in Sweden since 1990.
No census, or civil register has ever registered religious affiliation in Sweden, thus polls is the only source of information we've got when it comes to these things.
However, I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt, so I'll wait until you provide your source before I dismiss your argument as sheer ignorance.
In the meantime, I'll provide this:
Source:
Even if we go by the lowest estimate (46%) it would only allow for a christian population of 54% which entirely defeats your argument that 70-80% of the population are lutheran christians. This is also discounting other minorities which would bring the number even further down.
- You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more.
Of course you could move the goalposts and claim that it is still (note: with the most conservative estimates around) a majority of the population that is religious, which is entirely irrelevant as the original claim was that Sweden was one of the countries with the largest percentage of nonbelievers, not that Sweden had a non-religious majority (which according to most polls I've seen, it does, but lets ignore that for now).
Historically though, I'd have to say that Sweden has hardly been a shining beacon of secularism and religious freedom. As secularism is a relatively recent thing, (for instance, converting from the state religion to non-christian religions was illegal until 1951 if memory serves. And as have already been pointed out, automatic membership was given to the church to everyone until 1996.
LOL, do you think I have to provide the evidence for you. LOL I wish my lectureres at Uni were so kind.
The last census in Sweden was in 2009. Not hard to find details from it, providing of course you know how to research. Some facts from it.
Facts
- Almost 8 out of 10 Swedes are members of the Church of Sweden - 7 million.
- Only 1 in 10 Swedes thinks religion is important in daily life.
- Around 7 out of 10 children are christened in the Church of Sweden.
- Just over 5 out of 10 weddings take place in church.
- Almost 9 out of 10 Swedes have Christian burials.
- Islam has around 130,000 adherents in Sweden (more according to Muslim sources).
As for your offered figures, LOL they range from 46% to 85%, this should tell you something about surveys. However you keep believing whatever supports your belief, even if modern day Swedes do not agree with you.
A little tip for you, atheists do not have children christened, and atheists do not have a christian funeral. And if they do, they should really, really, question their atheist position.
Personally I trust what the Swedish people say and do, rather than what your belief pattern tells me is true.
Cheers.
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL the last time I added 23% to 53% it turned out to be 76%. I am sure with your personal belief patterns you can get some other answer.
I am sorry you do not consider a countries census evidence.
I do not, never will have to, and never will unless I personally want to, provide the material for the sources I cite. If you are too lazy, too ignorant or too arrogant to go and get these details for yourself, I am more than willing to leave you in your arrogance and ignorance. I have no need, want or anything else, in seeing your own personal education standard lifted, this is a personal choice on your behalf. Up to you whether you choose to or not.
Read above.
LOL of course you don't have an ego problem, you have been telling me I was wrong ever since you first started posting to me and trying to prove your position with ungrouped data. LOL Get over yourself.
The evidence is Swedish Census. Either find it and read it or remain in your ignorance. I really do not care one way or the other.
Read above.
Read above the above.
I have posted my evidence, get over it.
LOL just look at how many times I have mentioned the census.
Then go and find it and stop being so lazy.
I have already posted my evidence.
Yes I do. I perhaps understand debating much better than you. LOL I can just imagine a debate, any debate for that matter, hell a person would have to take a whole library in to a debate to go with your rules. I can just see it, okay let us take a five hour break whilst this team reads this book. Okay have you finished the book and seen where the evidence has come from.... Oh, you have a book on offer... Okay let us take another 5 hour break whilst this team reads this book.
In a debate, it is not up to me to do your preparation for you. If you are not fully informed on what you are debating on, and have to keep running off to the internet to get ungrouped and unsupported data to prove a point, then you really are not prepared for the debate.
LOL
The facts are there, 76% of the people you offered were not Atheists. LOL I love dealing with intelligent people.
stiletto
Naughty But Nice
More people would live in the moment and appreciate what they have now, in the present, during our short and precious time on the planet. No one would be trying to earn brownie points to get into an imaginary eternal after-life and the focus would be this life. There would be a greater appreciation and respect for other human beings and living things. And yes, there would be more sorrow for the less fortunate and weaker among us who'd lose their crutch. IMO.
(John Lennon's "Imagine" paints a pretty picture)
(John Lennon's "Imagine" paints a pretty picture)
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL, yeah, Charles Manson thought the same thing.
Alceste
Vagabond
A lot less of this kind of nonsense.
How eloquent. As it is obvious to me and anyone else with any trace of intellect that you're not only dishonest, but also uncapable of debating in any semblance of civilized manner, I will withdraw from this discussion.
For the benefit of those stubborn enough to continue this "debate": I have searched the official channels for statistics (Statistiska Centralbyrån - "Statistics Sweden" in english) and cannot find the census in question. As I cannot yet post links I cannot provide you with the homepage directly, however wikipedia has an article on the subject titled "Statistics Sweden" and from there you can also find a link to the original page.
If footprints try to provide any article or source that does not originate from this bureau it is not a census and definitely not official.
footprints
Well-Known Member
Then I would suggest you learn to research, the facts I put up there didn't come from thin air, albeit did come from Government sources.
You have your belief patterns. I do not wish to change these. Albeit I will not deny facts just to appease your belief patterns. Over 80% of Swedes align with the church, that is fact you cannot escape and is listed right across the internet.
Some ignorant people will argue the fact, that you can belong to a church and not believe. I will not disagree with that fact. Nor will I disagree with the fact, that a person can believe and not attend church, nor will I ignore this fact as other posters have as they have tried to twists facts in their favour.
Cheers.
This raises a very valid point, no agency, ideology or group is immune to corruption, and while I'm reluctant to describe atheism as such, it is no exception.
It is hard to say how different the world would be had it been dominated or exclusively inhabited by atheists. I do not think there would be less strife, as nationalism, ethnicity and ideology give people enough differences to focus on and justify their struggles with.
One thing we might see is a more public acceptance of the vadility of the sciences regarding the origin of the universe, though it is far from certain.
In the end, as was mentioned. We still deal with humans, and human behaviour probably has a bigger factor determining the shape of our world than any other.
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Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Well, atheism doesn't have the same vulnerability as theism to abuse by God's supposed prophets, declaring absolute truth, and threatening those who fail to follow it with dire punishment, sometimes convincing their believers to impose that punishment themselves.
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL nah, some atheists have other superstitions, like all religions are out to get them. Don't let a religious person speak or they will put a hex on you.
And as for atheists (not all thankfully), not threatening people with a dire punishment, I would like a dollar donated to charity for everytime I have heard some dipstick atheist call another person a liar, or stongly suggest they are stupid and or an idiot. Or in other words what these dumb atheists are saying is, unless you believe my stupidity, and bow to my arrogance and ignorance, you will only be stupid and condemning these people to atheist hell.
footprints
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, the only way atheism can lead to spiritual enlightenment, is by 1) Gaining enough knowledge to know they don't have enough knowledge to know anything, which would make them start questioning their own belief or 2) By following a religious path of enlightenment.
And even then with 1) above, without acknowledging a spirit, the path of enlightenment will never be fully complete. At some stage the atheist would have to defy their own belief, and defeat their own intelligence. Which is of couse the hardest part for anybody, who undertakes a path of enlightenment, getting around their own intelligence.
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McBell
Admiral Obvious
Source please.
footprints
Well-Known Member
Hi footprints -
1) Atheist do question their own beliefs constantly a lot of current atheists are former religious members whose answers to questions on their beliefs no longer fit the limitations that established religions placed upon them
2) Religion is not the only way to spiritual enlightenment
I used to belong to a religious institution. Have you ever been an atheist?
1) Atheist do question their own beliefs constantly a lot of current atheists are former religious members whose answers to questions on their beliefs no longer fit the limitations that established religions placed upon them
2) Religion is not the only way to spiritual enlightenment
I used to belong to a religious institution. Have you ever been an atheist?