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What contributes more - science or religion???

waitasec

Veteran Member
if one believes they are in communion with a celestial deity, that the purpose of the cosmos was for their benefit and this deity is concerned with their daily lives, that person has found an undue sense of importance by appointing their selves as an ambassador to the unknown thusly giving them a belief of moral superiority over those who do not subscribe to such arrogance...
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
if one believes they are in communion with a celestial deity, that the purpose of the cosmos was for their benefit and this deity is concerned with their daily lives, that person has found an undue sense of importance by appointing their selves as an ambassador to the unknown thusly giving them a belief of moral superiority over those who do not subscribe to such arrogance...

I disagree......

Everyone who believe in a celestial deity may not subscribe to a superiority complex. We must entertain the thought that the connection with a celestial deity is just for personal enrichment and empowerment. Just because you believe to have a connection with "God" doesn't imply inherent superiority. Everyone approaches the divine differently.....

That is why comments attacking religion using media examples of violent behavior is an unfair assertion of discounting every single religion on the.planet. Some Native in the amazon may not be concerned with what a person does in an a ortion clinic or sexual orientation, rather, how they can become closer to their god or gods.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
I disagree......

Everyone who believe in a celestial deity may not subscribe to a superiority complex. We must entertain the thought that the connection with a celestial deity is just for personal enrichment and empowerment. Just because you believe to have a connection with "God" doesn't imply inherent superiority. Everyone approaches the divine differently.....

That is why comments attacking religion using media examples of violent behavior is an unfair assertion of discounting every single religion on the.planet. Some Native in the amazon may not be concerned with what a person does in an a ortion clinic or sexual orientation, rather, how they can become closer to their god or gods.

well one can also say guns don't kill people...people kill people

it's the type of person who would fly into buildings to the type of person who
infringes on the inalienable rights of their fellow man...

people do things for the sake of goodness and empathy but for some reason religion gets the credit. tell me has religion set anyone apart if there is nothing a religious person can do that i cannot?
 

Freethought

Enlightened One
Well Benjamin Franklin once wrote: "this would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it." Good enough for me.
 

The Wizard

Active Member
I say the reasons are in part because "Atheism" is just another form of a religion, and most Atheist are religious persons expressing their doubts and their lacking in faith.

It is pretentious to come onto a religious forum and then claim to be a devout Atheist.

:sad:

It's really a sight to see. Most of these people still think that religion or beliefs in God do not affect anything or contribute to anything in their life. Yet, they are quite busy having a conversation with someone about the contributions of religion, with religion on the thread title and on a religion education forum.....:D
 
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Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
well one can also say guns don't kill people...people kill people

it's the type of person who would fly into buildings to the type of person who
infringes on the inalienable rights of their fellow man...

people do things for the sake of goodness and empathy but for some reason religion gets the credit. tell me has religion set anyone apart if there is nothing a religious person can do that i cannot?

I think the goal of most religions is to empower the individual above immorality and to equip the individual with the tools to "cope" with life. To you, the non-believer you may say "I can cope just fine" but in your upbringing or social influences down the line there was once some religious influence that influenced the.moral.fiber of your being. In my opinion I don't believe religion is to mean you stand out or above others, its to enrich yourself to have a fulfilling life in that culture. Now, when you see others chastising you for not beleving as they do then we come into the territory of extremist. I believe if religion was that bad society would be.in chaos and people would be in constant battle. Human beings are corruptible entities and we need to realize that and disassociate religion with acts of violence.
 

The Wizard

Active Member
i'm sorry, but what has religion contributed to this thread....?
haughtiness. thats all you've contributed.

you can do better than that...

It contributed to the creation of this thread and the conversations in it...:D
Sorry, but what do you mean by "haughtiness?"
 

The Wizard

Active Member
So, what does an "honest scientist" think when he uses all his scientific tools, home, clothes, food, etc. and lives out his lifestyle around himself, when all of it has the fingerprints of countless people who have contributed to it in a countless number of ways- along with wearing pink t-shirts?

If you involve people you have to involve what makes up their lives also, which is a contributing factor (i.e. efforts, actions, attitudes, views, the wearing of pink t-shirts, etc) Does he still wish to think that wearing pink t-shirts do not play any part in his life?

Our life is not due to a non-pink t-shirt wearing person inventing and producing everything isolated in a cave in some mountain. Many people wearing pink t-shirts have their value contributions and so does science for about everything you currently see around you and experience.

Explain now to me why my edited version bears any less truth than your original statement.
Do you see how what you wrote is not really an argument at all?


Well, I'm not here to argue in the first place. I don't even know what your point is here. Show me where I am in error and I'll stand corrected...:D
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Well, I'm not here to argue in the first place. I don't even know what your point is here. Show me where I am in error and I'll stand corrected...:D

The point I was making was that the way you put it you could replace the wording and the argument would still bear no weight. Many people wear pink t-shirts and yet we consider that to be of little consequence for the tasks they perform.

It matters not to me whether the carpenter building my porch is religious or not (or if he is wearing a pink t-shirt for that matter). The only thing that matters is whether he is a good carpenter.

Thus to credit religion with what religious people do that is not specifically in the name of that religion seems pointless.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Well you and I are no scholar of any ancient text so I don't think with confidence we can say that the murder of people and discriminatory acts are mandated. What about Buddhist? What about Sikhs, Hindus, or Upanishads? If you are going to discount religion, don't discount all religion without adequately studying it (college courses in religious studies does count to make anyone an expert). For instance I study neuroscience and wouldn't make claims about it if I didn't know it and had an advance degree in it, as such acts especially making claims about something that is potentially misleading looks bad. I can't make claims about religion especially all religions if I am not familiar with their text. Simply looking at the news and watching acts of violence in the name if faith js not enough reason to paint all religions with one brush. The "devil made me do it" is not an excuse for acts if violence. Our courts if law cannot prosecute the devil, we prosecute the individual and I believe like courts of law we should take the same approach when someone commits acts if violence in the name of religion.

I'm not sure I would consider myself a scholar in religious texts, nor do I think I've deserved such acclaim. I have, however, taken the time to read the texts of many religions, including The Bible, The Torah, The Quran, parts of the Vedas, many Buddhist texts (mainly Zen related), and so on.

And my experience is that most religious people do not adhere to the texts in a literal manner. Perhaps we should be grateful for that since many of these texts contain, endorse and even command acts that any modern society would consider horrendous.

I have in other treads argued that if one claims that the text of one's religion is the word of one's god then a literal interpretation of it is the only correct option, and that those that do are the "true" adherents to their religion. The only other option is to allow the notion that these texts are just texts, mutable and not necessarily more right or correct than any other text.

Hence, it appears as if those Christians (and certainly Jews) who condemns homosexuality are the "true" adherents and that those who discard the more unpleasant parts of their text are not.
I have a question regarding your impression of religions though, and it is an interesting question, or at least I think it is.

Do you know of any religion who does not consider their group, or at least humans in general, to be of immense importance to the universe?

It seems as if this is a universal notion; that we are somehow essential and central to the world. This is a very dangerous notion because it indicates that this world was made to have us in it, and like a puddle vaporizing in the sun* we may find ourselves extinct before we realize that this is not the case and that the world, and certainly the universe, does not need humans.

Rather it is us that needs the world and we would do well to make note of this.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I think the goal of most religions is to empower the individual above immorality and to equip the individual with the tools to "cope" with life.

what is immoral about being skeptical? are atheists more prone to murder or to steal because of their skepticism? i think not.
in fact it 's the opposite, religion gives the stamp of approval to do things that are immoral by infringing on the inalienable rights of others.
look at the stats in the bible belt...where there are more cases of STD's, divorce and obesity compared to secular societies like sweden

To you, the non-believer you may say "I can cope just fine" but in your upbringing or social influences down the line there was once some religious influence that influenced the.moral.fiber of your being.

are you saying before the 10 commandments the jews had no moral fiber in their being? lets think about this for a second. animals are empathetic to their own species, they have to be to ensure survival. morality is a selfish act in order to survive because reason would say there is power in numbers.

In my opinion I don't believe religion is to mean you stand out or above others, its to enrich yourself to have a fulfilling life in that culture.

how can religion enrich your life? isn't that making an unsubstantiated claim?
there is no way for you to gage if you are any happier or at peace than i am is there.

Now, when you see others chastising you for not beleving as they do then we come into the territory of extremist. I believe if religion was that bad society would be.in chaos and people would be in constant battle.

what do you think i mean by infringing on the inalienable rights of others?

Human beings are corruptible entities and we need to realize that and disassociate religion with acts of violence.

we need to disassociate religion with morality
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
tell me has religion set anyone apart if there is nothing a religious person can do that i cannot?
Counting just the 20th century we have religion producing such persons as the Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr, and Mother Theresa, and those are three of the religious giants.

:clap
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Counting just the 20th century we have religion producing such persons as the Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr, and Mother Theresa, and those are three of the religious giants.

:clap

While Martin Luther King Jr. seems genuine, Gandhi and Mother Theresa are highly overrated.

Do you want me to list scientists who has contributed more to society?
I assure you it would be very easy.
Hence, your reply is invalid to the question asked.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
While Martin Luther King Jr. seems genuine, Gandhi and Mother Theresa are highly overrated.

Do you want me to list scientists who has contributed more to society?
I assure you it would be very easy.
Hence, your reply is invalid to the question asked.
Do you realize that all you do is repeatedly deny and deny and deny as if your denials are some kind of authoritative pontification?

Link = Defense Mechanisms - Denial, to protect the ego.

FYI.

:candle:
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Do you realize that all you do is repeatedly deny and deny and deny as if your denials are some kind of authoritative pontification?

Link = Defense Mechanisms - Denial, to protect the ego.

FYI.

:candle:

From your link: "Denial is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth..."

Your, for lack of a better word, "truth" is in no way obvious, nor do your claims represent reality. Hence, your argument fails.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
It contributed to the creation of this thread and the conversations in it...:D
Sorry, but what do you mean by "haughtiness?"

wow...
this thread is about what has contributed to society as a whole...
science or religion. and you seem to think that this thread is it's contribution because we are having a discussion about what contributes more...science or religion...well if you hadn't noticed science is apart of the equation too...
so what has religion contributed in society as a whole?
i'll help you out since you're having trouble with this simple question

religion has contributed
1. division
2. arrogance
3. the ideal of making uninformed decisions as a virtue
4. the ideal of skepticism is approached as a vice
5. celestial dictatorship
6. a higher calling
7. justified immoral actions upon fellow human beings
8. maintain traditional order from bronze age ideals
9. an undue sense of importance
10. knowledge of the unknowable

science has contributed
1. unity
2. truth/discovery of evidence
3. informed decisions
4. skepticism
5. equality by leveling the playing field
6. integrity
7. psychology
8. change
9. humility
10. knowledge of how little we know
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
From your link: "Denial is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth..."

Your, for lack of a better word, "truth" is in no way obvious, nor do your claims represent reality. Hence, your argument fails.
Except that I give specific examples with names and you give more denials.

Duh.

:shrug:
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Decided to start a new thread after reading some comments on a previous thread I started.

What do you consider contributes more to a society, science or religion?

I think that the scientific contributions to the world is much more of a mixed bag then most people are willing to admit.

People who live in non impacted, small less "technically advanced" communities have in general much better levels of mental health. Then we have in our modern society that has a modern scientific view of the world. Also modern medicine has also gotten to much credit for life expectancy. There is a much closer correlation to life expectancy and in door plumbing then there is to western medical attention.

This is also the first time in human history that we have been able to do whole sale destruction to the whole planet. A gift of science to modern society that we have all misused.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
@jarofthoughts

Know-it-all is right.....it seems when presented with examples you have this denial and it runs consistent. Basically when someone has an opposing view you come back with more opposition not necessarily addressing the comment.
 
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