What contributes more - science or religion???

[The Wizard]

I'm saying that a good carpenter would be a good carpenter whether he believed in a god or not. Why should I give credit to religion for him being a good carpenter just because he happens to be religious?



If I misunderstood your point then I apologize, but then I think you need to explain it better.



Again, a good carpenter is a good carpenter whether he believes in god or not. Those things are not connected. Why should I give credit to his belief in god?

See, your entire approach is just about what YOU choose to value and give credit to concerning someone's lifestyle and situations instead of what's involved in the whole equation of a process or event. Your perspective does not apply to other people that see a wider picture.

 

[waitasec]

A good place to start would be to admit you judged him to soon.

do you think gandhi was perfect?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

do you think gandhi was perfect?

No!!!! I think he made many miscalculations. He however was not a sexual predator or a racist like many Hindu Fundamentalists would have you believe.

Much of this stuff comes from the Idea he was not pro-War when it comes to Pakistan. So the violent Hindu's hate him. Today much of the Indian Fundamentalists have the same ideas as the man who killed Gandhi.

I do believe He was one of the great men of the 20th century.

 

[The Wizard]

nice back pedaling...
this is the original question that pertains to this thread...
if you don't like it...tough.





the ideal of making uninformed decisions as a virtue goes well with your principles then...not for me.
a higher calling...and you don't think that comes off as a bit arrogant?
knowing the unknowable seems a bit too dangerous for anyone to claim it's just under the guise of religion, the cancer of society.



unity, truth, informed decisions, change, humility and the knowledge of how little we know goes against religious values.
it thrives on the division of people (why are there so many religions in the world and what is the #1 excuse for war?), truth is relative, faith is not making an informed decision, the mere idea of a god (not to mention a personal saviour) is knowing the unknowable and makes it possible for people to justify the horrific act of flying into buildings...

show me something new....

I was not back-peddling. I don't back-peddle. You have me confused with someone who back-peddles. But, if you want to make yourself look better by saying I was back-peddling by all means... have at it.

You asked me, "What has religion contributed?" (page 16) after quoting one of my posts. And since you did not ask the "whole" question at that time I responded with an example to you.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Once more many lies are told about Gandhi.

This is what NELSON MANDELA said about Gandhi.

<snipped>

Does not sound racist to me. If you can believe NELSON MANDELA when it comes to South African history (and I do)it was the poor treatment of blacks that turned Gandhi into the Mahatma.

Please read The Sacred Warrior - TIME

@ jarofthoughts and waitasec I hope I have opened your mind on the subject of Gandhi.

A good place to start would be to admit you judged him to soon.

The quotes I gave you was from 'The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi' (pages 8 and 3 respectively).
Are you claiming that they are faulty?
Look, no-one is saying that Gandhi didn't do any good, nor that he remained a racist all his life. Just be aware that he was nowhere near the saint and liberator that some people make him out to be. I said he was overrated, not thoroughly evil.

 

[Bismillah]

no, man will...

I agree Jar of Thoughts, Science and Religion are merely tools.

 

[waitasec]

I was not back-peddling. I don't back-peddle. You have me confused with someone who back-peddles. But, if you want to make yourself look better by saying I was back-peddling by all means... have at it.

You asked me, "What has religion contributed?" (page 16) after quoting one of my posts. And since you did not ask the "whole" question at that time I responded with an example to you.

here...

So, what does an "honest scientist" think when he uses all his scientific tools, home, clothes, food, etc. and lives out his lifestyle around himself, when all of it has the fingerprints of countless people who have contributed to it in a countless number of ways- along with their beliefs and religions?

ok, so what has religion contributed?

If you involve people you have to involve what makes up their lives also, which is a contributing factor (i.e. efforts, actions, attitudes, views, beliefs, etc) Does he still wish to think that beliefs in God do not play any part in his life?

what does this have to do with religion contributing anything to society?
what has religion contributed for the sake of religion...
like science does for the sake of science.

Our life is not due to a non-religious person inventing and producing everything isolated in a cave in some mountain. Many religions have their value contributions

such as? you still haven't said what religion has contributed...i'm waiting

and so does science for about everything you currently see around you and experience.

well yes thanks to science we have advanced in medicine and technology
but what has religion contributed?

It is not a this/that and only one side wins situation- in reality. As of all things, there is a good side and a bad side to everything.

yes of course...like i said before guns don't kill people people kill people.

Like I said, both have to be balanced in their application in life for many areas. Sometimes we need more than the other. Sometimes we need complete divorce, depending on the area in life and the situations. I was responding to the OP's question about the factors of "contribution or values."

you tell me what good religion has done for society and i'll gladly stop repeating the question...

I tell you what, if a scientist has no room for religion how about we just start taking away everything around that person that he/she owns and uses that was invented/created/caused by people with religions and beliefs in God. After all, he has no room for it.

but your using an ad hominem are you not?
inventions by religious people are one thing inventions for the sake of religion is another...
now what has religion contributed?

Alot of the reason for this forum's creation is largely due to religions and beliefs in God. This is a religion education forum is it not? So, if you have no room for religion then what are you on here for? It has the effects and results of religion all over it.

i would say a reason why unbelievers are here on a religious forum is to explain to the religious what religion actually does... create a system of moral superiority, what do you think?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

gandhi believed in the caste system. am i wrong in that assessment?

He was against all caste discrimination.
Mahatma Gandhi said: UNTOUCHABILITY IS A CRIME AGAINST GOD AND MEN.
He also broke the caste rules. He lost his caste because of it.
He did not go far enough for many Dalits. Some low caste people criticize him for that. While other Hindu's say he went to far.

He also had no bias against Atheism.

 

[jarofthoughts]

See, your entire approach is just about what YOU choose to value and give credit to concerning someone's lifestyle and situations instead of what's involved in the whole equation of a process or event. Your perspective does not apply to other people that see a wider picture.

This part of the discussion started when you posted this:

So, what does an "honest scientist" think when he uses all his scientific tools, home, clothes, food, etc. and lives out his lifestyle around himself, when all of it has the fingerprints of countless people who have contributed to it in a countless number of ways- along with their beliefs and religions?

If you involve people you have to involve what makes up their lives also, which is a contributing factor (i.e. efforts, actions, attitudes, views, beliefs, etc) Does he still wish to think that beliefs in God do not play any part in his life?

I tell you what, if a scientist has no room for religion how about we just start taking away everything around that person that he/she owns and uses that was invented/created/caused by people with religions and beliefs in God. After all, he has no room for it.

You indicate that the fact that some of the people who make stuff/invent stuff are religious that that somehow equates that religion had a hand in creating those things. That is utterly false and as I showed you, for all intents and purposes it is just as irrelevant whether a carpenter is religious or not as it is whether he wears a pink t-shirt or not. I can still appreciate the porch he built for me and his choices in faith or t-shirts is completely irrelevant to his role as a carpenter. He didn't build a good sturdy porch because he was religious any more than he did so because he wore a pink t-shirt. He built it like that because he is a good carpenter.

Do I need to spell this out any further?

The fact that he is religious or not is completely irrelevant to whether he is a good carpenter or not.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I agree Jar of Thoughts, Science and Religion are merely tools.

And of the two science has a FAR better track record for getting results.

 

[waitasec]

He was against all caste discrimination.
Mahatma Gandhi said: UNTOUCHABILITY IS A CRIME AGAINST GOD AND MEN.
He also broke the caste rules. He lost his caste because of it.
He did not go far enough for many Dalits. Some low caste people criticize him for that. While other Hindu's say he went to far.

He also had no bias against Atheism.

my intention was to respond to a post that listed and gave religious people the credit for helping humanity advance while conveniently leaving out atheists who did the same thing.

curious,
what does, "He lost his caste because of it." mean?
that he didn't acknowledge it or he was caste out?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

my intention was to respond to a post that listed and gave religious people the credit for helping humanity advance while conveniently leaving out atheists who did the same thing.

curious,
what does, "He lost his caste because of it." mean?
that he didn't acknowledge it or he was caste out?

He was kicked out of his caste.

I would also agree with you that atheists have help humanity in many ways.

The Atheist Bertrand Russell is one of my heros. The Russell–Einstein Manifesto calling for nuclear disarmament was just one of the great things he did.

 

[The Wizard]

You indicate that the fact that some of the people who make stuff/invent stuff are religious that that somehow equates that religion had a hand in creating those things. That is utterly false and as I showed you, for all intents and purposes it is just as irrelevant whether a carpenter is religious or not as it is whether he wears a pink t-shirt or not.

His religion and beliefs are a part of his lifestyle. His lifestyle leads to your new porch. Connect the dots. It's not that difficult. How about the tools he uses? Im sure many poeple were involved with making those tools. I'm sure their religions and beliefs influenced their lifestyle also. I guess that part should be denied, huh?

A person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill. Beliefs are some of the colors and make up found on the personality making your porch. It is just another factor. Religions and beliefs influence and affect lifestyles. His and yours.

Once again, if you prefer not to credit those componants of humanity then that is your choice. You posit that religion is as relevant as a pink T-shirt. Enough said...

I can still appreciate the porch he built for me and his choices in faith or t-shirts is completely irrelevant to his role as a carpenter.

That's quite a stretch there JOT. Once again, it's your choice on applying your selective credits. It makes no difference to me.

He didn't build a good sturdy porch because he was religious any more than he did so because he wore a pink t-shirt. He built it like that because he is a good carpenter.

Ya, a good carpenter with religion and beliefs, which influence his life in many areas and therefore influence everything else. It's not that hard to understand.

Do I need to spell this out any further? The fact that he is religious or not is completely irrelevant to whether he is a good carpenter or not.

A religious person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill. Their beliefs and religion is still an underlying factor. Perhaps his religion is not obvious when he performs his skill. That does not mean that no cause and effect processes are going on. But, since religions and beliefs influence and affect a persons life and choices, without such you may of hired someone else with less qualification.

 

[waitasec]

His religion and beliefs are a part of his lifestyle. His lifestyle leads to your new porch. Connect the dots. It's not that difficult. How about the tools he uses? Im sure many poeple were involved with making those tools. I'm sure their religions and beliefs influenced their lifestyle also. I guess that part should be denied, huh?

A person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill. Beliefs are some of the colors and make up found on the personality making your porch. It is just another factor. Religions and beliefs influence and affect lifestyles. His and yours.

Once again, if you prefer not to credit those componants of humanity then that is your choice. You posit that religion is as relevant as a pink T-shirt. Enough said...



That's quite a stretch there JOT. Once again, it's your choice on applying your selective credits. It makes no difference to me.



Ya, a good carpenter with religion and beliefs, which influence his life in many areas and therefore influence everything else. It's not that hard to understand.



A religious person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill. Their beliefs and religion is still an underlying factor. Perhaps his religion is not obvious when he performs his skill. That does not mean that no cause and effect processes are going on. But, since religions and beliefs influence and affect a persons life and choices, without such you may of hired someone else with less qualification.

are religious carpenters better than non religious carpenters?
is that what you are saying?

 

[The Wizard]

are religious carpenters better than non religious carpenters?
is that what you are saying?

No, not a bit. Like I said. You have me confused with someone else. I was referring to the dynamics of cause and effect- and circumstances.

I am well aware that a non-religious person can be as qualified in most skills that a religious person can be highly qualified in (let's just leave out the skill of faith and belief for this one, eh, wink).

 

[waitasec]

No, not a bit. Like I said. You have me confused with someone else. I was referring to the dynamics of cause and effect- and circumstances.

I am well aware that a non-religious person can be as qualified in most skills that a religious person can be highly qualified in (let's just leave out the skill of faith and belief for this one, eh, wink).

how do you differentiate the contribution either one provides?

His religion and beliefs are a part of his lifestyle. His lifestyle leads to your new porch.

the lifestyle of either one, right? religious and non religious...

 

[The Wizard]

how do you differentiate the contribution either one provides?



the lifestyle of either one, right? religious and non religious...

Like differentiating the sum contribution and affects caused by human attitude, actions, thoughts, etc. There is no device except objective cause and effect conclusions and deduction that can identify the omni-present influence of any of it. It is the cause and effect portion of reality, which is invisible to most people.

It literally spreads out everywhere from tangible levels- obvious levels- subtle and accumulative levels, etc. I am for both sides you know. I know both also operate polarly causing good and bad things. I accept both as part of life. I do not have any real wide scope accounting to say what has contributed more than the other.

It all blends together eventually. I don't pick any side in favor over the other. They are both good and bad depending on situations and circumstance. I have no reason to go further until better analysis of history is made- on the cause and effect plane of objective reality. How do you use a wedge to seperate any of it when its affects and influences are spread and present in about everything? I have no answer for that.

 

[waitasec]

Like differentiating the sum contribution and affects caused by human attitude, actions, thoughts, etc. There is no device except objective cause and effect conclusions and deduction that can identify the omni-present influence of any of it. It is the cause and effect portion of reality, which is invisible to most people.

It literally spreads out everywhere from tangible levels- obvious levels- subtle and accumulative levels, etc. I am for both sides you know. I know both also operate polarly causing good and bad things. I accept both as part of life. I do not have any real wide scope accounting to say what has contributed more than the other.

It all blends together eventually. I don't pick any side in favor over the other. They are both good and bad depending on situations and circumstance. I have no reason to go further until better analysis of history is made- on the cause and effect plane of objective reality. How do you use a wedge to seperate any of it when its affects and influences are spread and present in about everything? I have no answer for that.

in the scheme of things we only have history as wedge to separate the effects of either cause. imo it's pretty clear.

wherever there is arrogance there is hate and division and an undue sense of importance and these symptoms seem to gravitate towards religious blind faith, a flaw in the human species we will hopefully evolve out of...if we can make it that far.
after all, it is the goal of religious to seek the demise of humanity, a welcoming of the apocalypse for the homecoming of the faithful.

 

[jarofthoughts]

His religion and beliefs are a part of his lifestyle. His lifestyle leads to your new porch.

I expect his religiosity contributed about as much as his liking for pink t-shirts.

How about the tools he uses? Im sure many poeple were involved with making those tools.

Maybe they wore pink t-shirts as well?

I'm sure their religions and beliefs influenced their lifestyle also. I guess that part should be denied, huh?

Only inasmuch as we deny the fact that they wear pink t-shirts.

A person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill.

Nor do an atheist carpenter become a theist. These things are irrelevant to the skill they apply.

Beliefs are some of the colors and make up found on the personality making your porch. It is just another factor.

And so does the fact that he likes pink t-shirts.

Religions and beliefs influence and affect lifestyles. His and yours.

As does their fashion sense.

Once again, if you prefer not to credit those componants of humanity then that is your choice. You posit that religion is as relevant as a pink T-shirt.

In this context? Absolutely.

Ya, a good carpenter with religion and beliefs, which influence his life in many areas and therefore influence everything else. It's not that hard to understand.

Seeing as everything about a person has an influence on essentially everything else, this is as important to his skill as a carpenter as the fact that he wears a pink t-shirt.

A religious person does not become an atheist when they perform a skill.

Nor do they become a theist.

Their beliefs and religion is still an underlying factor.

And relevant to carpentering exactly how?

Perhaps his religion is not obvious when he performs his skill. That does not mean that no cause and effect processes are going on.

I expect that to affect his carpentering skills just as much as his pink t-shirt.

But, since religions and beliefs influence and affect a persons life and choices, without such you may of hired someone else with less qualification.

Are you claiming that religious carpenters are somehow better than atheist carpenters?

If so you need to justify that claim.



The Pink t-shirt Carpenter. Somehow, inexplicably better than your average carpenter?
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1439/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1439R-1015281.jpg

 

[Know it all.]

Now jar that I didn't know thanks for sharing that about Ghandi

What he posted was lies about Gandhi and it is not true.

@ jarofthoughts and waitasec I hope I have opened your mind on the subject of Gandhi.

A good place to start would be to admit you judged him to soon.

Those two claim Gandhi was a racist and Mother Teresa a terrorist so they are not open to the truth.

They are not judging too soon as theirs is judgments based on their own trashy intentions.

:yes: