What contributes more - science or religion???

[waitasec]

Are you kidding? Majority of those are cults and does not answer my question......

well correct me if i'm wrong, but christianity and it's different sects were considered cults.

Let me ask again, name 3 other non-abrahamic religions (religions that are classified as religions.not cults) that retard education. Instead of lists systematically show me three and show me where each three retards religion. How hard is that?

well it's hard when you keep moving goal posts...
this is what i was responding to...

Im still having trouble bow religion "retards" society. It seems the gist of the comparison argument, (religion vs science) is that you're comparing customs attributed to religion versus the technological advancements of our time. I believe medical science is about the advancement of human life and health. I don't see how religion is different save the methods in which one goes about. Instead of anecdotes, I would like to know how every single religion on this planet is bad for society.

i then listed the atrocities that religion condoned
if you want i can list more...
genital mutilation
and the dominion of men over women

 

[The Wizard]

in the scheme of things we only have history as wedge to separate the effects of either cause. imo it's pretty clear.

wherever there is arrogance there is hate and division and an undue sense of importance and these symptoms seem to gravitate towards religious blind faith, a flaw in the human species we will hopefully evolve out of...if we can make it that far.
after all, it is the goal of religious to seek the demise of humanity, a welcoming of the apocalypse for the homecoming of the faithful.

But, I think there is alot more to it than just pinning the blame on religions or religious people for the things you mentioned. The blame game is nothing but a two edged sword. Blame will be in the eye of the beholder. On the same note, you could just as easily pin the blame of a scientist creating the atomic bomb to destroy the planet and melt Hiroshimo. Which one would actually be more dangerous?

It's always about how such things are used. People that use the tools wrongly are the ones to blame and be showed as example. Everyone else and the religion they subscribe to has nothing to do with it- as actions tell the story.

I seriously doubt that religion seeks the demise of humanity. What religion? I don't even know one person that is religious and could be described as you mention. You would have to be more precise when you use the word religion. All don't go in the same pile.

 

[ImmortalPhoenix]

I relate science to technology, and humanity to religion.

Einstein: "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

If we had all the scientific knowledge in the universe, compared to people actually following their religion in the universe, I would have to say Religion would (and has) contribute so much more.

 

[The Wizard]

I expect his religiosity contributed about as much as his liking for pink t-shirts.



Maybe they wore pink t-shirts as well?



Only inasmuch as we deny the fact that they wear pink t-shirts.



Nor do an atheist carpenter become a theist. These things are irrelevant to the skill they apply.



And so does the fact that he likes pink t-shirts.



As does their fashion sense.



In this context? Absolutely.



Seeing as everything about a person has an influence on essentially everything else, this is as important to his skill as a carpenter as the fact that he wears a pink t-shirt.



Nor do they become a theist.



And relevant to carpentering exactly how?



I expect that to affect his carpentering skills just as much as his pink t-shirt.



Are you claiming that religious carpenters are somehow better than atheist carpenters?

If so you need to justify that claim.



The Pink t-shirt Carpenter. Somehow, inexplicably better than your average carpenter?
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1439/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1439R-1015281.jpg

What is your fasination with pink T-shirts? You are repeatedly saying that religion and beliefs are no more relevant than a pink T-shirt. Would you explain how you drew that conclusion. Please elaborate your assertion.

I really have no idea what your attempting to get across. I'm not going to deny that religion and beliefs are a part of our world and life and therefore have contributed and helped create what I see around me in one degree to the next.

 

[The Wizard]

jarofthoughts... You do realize that the carpenter's beliefs and a degree of his disposition and demeaner (caused in part from beliefs) and religion have tranferred its presence and value onto your porch I hope? Once again it's your choice though on what you want to value out of it.

A pink T-shirt, lol. You got to be kidding me. When was the last time a pink T-shirt put churches all over the World, which helps 1000's of people cope with life's difficult issues and become more happy and prosperous in Life? You really need to think about that limited perspective.

I suppose your'e the type that would be around those people and not even see the connection. Perhaps trying to sell them a pink T-shirt. You're too funny... IMO.

 

[waitasec]

But, I think there is alot more to it than just pinning the blame on religions or religious people for the things you mentioned. The blame game is nothing but a two edged sword. Blame will be in the eye of the beholder. On the same note, you could just as easily pin the blame of a scientist creating the atomic bomb to destroy the planet and melt Hiroshimo. Which one would actually be more dangerous?

the ideals that would enable one to go out and kill are found in the ideals of control. the form of control over people by way of totalitarianism comes from the ideals of theocracy. god is the celestial dictator keeping track of every detail of every person life...and demands his followers to make converts or destroy those who are his enemies. what do you think about 9/11, the attacks in mumbai or the suicide car bomber in lakki marwat, pakistan, just to name a few?
these 3 major religions each believe they are the one true religion, right?
so how is that going to work out exactly?

It's always about how such things are used. People that use the tools wrongly are the ones to blame and be showed as example. Everyone else and the religion they subscribe to has nothing to do with it- as actions tell the story.

I seriously doubt that religion seeks the demise of humanity. What religion? I don't even know one person that is religious and could be described as you mention. You would have to be more precise when you use the word religion. All don't go in the same pile.

what did bush say when rallying up the nation to go to war?
"this crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while"
the US is considered a what? a christian nation...
read the NT letters. all were eagerly waiting and expecting for armageddon to finally arrive so the faithful can enter heaven. and what do you suppose the faithful are waiting for now...? maybe you haven't noticed but an awful lot of religious people are saying the end is near and welcome it.
what do you think about the strife between islam and isreal...?
these three major religions of the world that dwarf all other religions combined puts each and every one of us in harms way...believe it or not.

 

[The Wizard]

the ideals that would enable one to go out and kill are found in the ideals of control. the form of control over people by way of totalitarianism comes from the ideals of theocracy. god is the celestial dictator keeping track of every detail of every person life...and demands his followers to make converts or destroy those who are his enemies. what do you think about 9/11, the attacks in mumbai or the suicide car bomber in lakki marwat, pakistan, just to name a few?
these 3 major religions each believe they are the one true religion, right?
so how is that going to work out exactly?



what did bush say when rallying up the nation to go to war?
"this crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while"
the US is considered a what? a christian nation...
read the NT letters. all were eagerly waiting and expecting for armageddon to finally arrive so the faithful can enter heaven. and what do you suppose the faithful are waiting for now...? maybe you haven't noticed but an awful lot of religious people are saying the end is near and welcome it.
what do you think about the strife between islam and isreal...?
these three major religions of the world that dwarf all other religions combined puts each and every one of us in harms way...believe it or not.

Tyrants and polatics capitalize and twist religion for their own agenda. To rule, manipulate and control people that have the inclination to believe in a God with a good spirit. I am assuming many religions have been subverted and designed from the original purpose. So, I can agree with the most part.They don't mix well.

I still think religion itself is a different story. You're talking about specific religions then. And you're talking about polatical power piggy-backing off of religion to achieve and end.

 

[jarofthoughts]

What is your fasination with pink T-shirts?

Nothing really. I'm just using it to illustrate that you are making a false connection between the contributions that you allege that religion has made and the contributions that people have made regardless of their religion, or lack thereof.

You are repeatedly saying that religion and beliefs are no more relevant than a pink T-shirt. Would you explain how you drew that conclusion. Please elaborate your assertion.

In this context they are both equally irrelevant. You somehow think that everything that people do for some reason is related to their religion. That is a false assertion. In fact, I would argue that for most of what people do their religion is of no consequence at all. Of course you will have people who have made their religion their whole life, but when I hail a cab it really doesn't matter to me whether the cabbie believes in a god or not, nor does that affect his performance as a cab driver. It is simply irrelevant.

I really have no idea what your attempting to get across. I'm not going to deny that religion and beliefs are a part of our world and life and therefore have contributed and helped create what I see around me in one degree to the next.

Of course religion has affected our society as a whole. No-one is denying that. But to claim that somehow we should be grateful to religion because someone does their job or produces goods that we use is ludicrous.

jarofthoughts... You do realize that the carpenter's beliefs and a degree of his disposition and demeaner (caused in part from beliefs) and religion have tranferred its presence and value onto your porch I hope?

Nope. His religion, or lack thereof, is as irrelevant as his taste in t-shirts.

A pink T-shirt, lol. You got to be kidding me. When was the last time a pink T-shirt put churches all over the World, which helps 1000's of people cope with life's difficult issues and become more happy and prosperous in Life? You really need to think about that limited perspective.

How does any of this affect the skill of the carpenter building my porch?

 

[waitasec]

I still think religion itself is a different story. You're talking about specific religions then. And you're talking about polatical power piggy-backing off of religion to achieve and end.

can you show me a point in time in history where religion didn't screw things up?

 

[waitasec]

I relate science to technology, and humanity to religion.

Einstein: "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."


:yes:

 

[The Wizard]

can you show me a point in time in history where religion didn't screw things up?

Wow... are you saying that religion as a whole only causes problems and war. That there are no values or positive things that result form it. You're stuck on the negative side of the spectrum. I'm sorry I have no antidote for that.

Why don't you just use some logic. Every town in history built one or several churches for a community and practiced their religion. Many things happened at the church with which solved problems and produced values on many levels for the society. Just think about it. They would of all been burned down as evil and destructive a long time ago if all it did was screw up things.

 

[waitasec]

Wow... are you saying that religion as a whole only causes problems and war. That there are no values or positive things that result form it. You're stuck on the negative side of the spectrum. I'm sorry I have no antidote for that.

Why don't you just use some logic. Every town in history built one or several churches for a community and practiced their religion. Many things happened at the church with which solved problems and produced values on many levels for the society. Just think about it. They would of all been burned down as evil and destructive a long time ago if all they did was screw up things.

help me out here...
i'm asking you an honest question. when in history was religion in charge and the region was at peace?
i am using logic from my understanding. if you can shed some light i would appreciate it. honestly.

 

[The Wizard]

help me out here...
i'm asking you an honest question. when in history was religion in charge and the region was at peace?
i am using logic from my understanding. if you can shed some light i would appreciate it. honestly.

Well that's a different question. I am not going on some google hunt. But, religion I suppose was quite a dominant factor even in US history (hence, the church example). Religion contributed in producing the very culture you and I are living. It is a part of the very make up and creation of it. I mean, what if two people in your ancestry met at a church, for a slight religious inspired reason, or quite simply the beliefs in God and religion had a hand in the meeting. You most likely wouldn't even exist without the fact. Religions and churches also created/inspired peace, co-operation and unity.

That is one of the first things many people adhere to when walking into a church.

 

[Student of X]

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" - Darth Vader

One of the few things he said that I agree with.

If by religion one includes primordial shamanism and mystical traditions, then its clear to me that religion has contributed FAR more than science. Without our ability to become shamans, our early tribal ancestors simply would not have survived. We wouldn't be here. And without the inspirations and intuitive and imaginative leaps granted by mystical disciplines, there would be no science. We wouldn't even be able to think in symbolic terms.

Science is NOTHING because it won't last. As Darth would say, only the Force lasts.

 

[The Wizard]

Nothing really. I'm just using it to illustrate that you are making a false connection between the contributions that you allege that religion has made and the contributions that people have made regardless of their religion, or lack thereof.



In this context they are both equally irrelevant. You somehow think that everything that people do for some reason is related to their religion. That is a false assertion. In fact, I would argue that for most of what people do their religion is of no consequence at all. Of course you will have people who have made their religion their whole life, but when I hail a cab it really doesn't matter to me whether the cabbie believes in a god or not, nor does that affect his performance as a cab driver. It is simply irrelevant.



Of course religion has affected our society as a whole. No-one is denying that. But to claim that somehow we should be grateful to religion because someone does their job or produces goods that we use is ludicrous.



Nope. His religion, or lack thereof, is as irrelevant as his taste in t-shirts.



How does any of this affect the skill of the carpenter building my porch?

JOT, what you are saying is that the guy's religion and beliefs were completely departed from him acquiring and performing a skill and everything else that lead to him making your porch. That is a quite a stretch of itself. Now you're focusing on the person's skill and not the whole person who uses the skill in his lifestyle, which is influenced in one degree to the next by his religion and beliefs.

A skill or non-religious drone did not walk up and make your porch-a person did- and whatever makes up that person did. He did not become atheist anytime during you contacting him or him performing the skill. And neither did the people who made the tools he is using or who built the store he went to buy the tools in.

Attitudes and emotions affect how we perform a skill. Do you not think religion and beliefs play a factor in his disposition and demeaner in making your porch? Come on. I'm starting to not take you serious at all about what you're insinuating.

All of this is about how you have chosen to interpret your reality, value and credit things about a person. Nothing more.

 

[Vendetta]

@waitasec

You have a terrible problem in addressing direct questions and since there aren't any athiest that actually can read and discuss I will leave this thread

 

[Vendetta]

@waitasec

You have a terrible problem in addressing direct questions and since there aren't any athiest that actually can read and discuss I will leave this thread

 

[chinu]

Still waiting...

Still PMing...

_/\_
Chinu

 

[waitasec]

Well that's a different question. I am not going on some google hunt. But, religion I suppose was quite a dominant factor even in US history (hence, the church example). Religion contributed in producing the very culture you and I are living.
It is a part of the very make up and creation of it. I mean, what if two people in your ancestry met at a church, for a slight religious inspired reason, or quite simply the beliefs in God and religion had a hand in the meeting. You most likely wouldn't even exist without the fact. Religions and churches also created/inspired peace, co-operation and unity.

That is one of the first things many people adhere to when walking into a church.

ok but this US culture we are living in is based on what?
i see that church can be used for sense of community, but when it's tied in with the ideal of a god who is concerned with our daily activities and he's on "our side", things get a bit skewed as we have witnessed.
as far as i can tell, we are still trying to over come the social stigma of same sex marriages, birth control for teens and equal pay for women. it wasn't until recently, relatively speaking, women could vote or had the option to demand a divorce from an abusive husband
sex is taboo while extreme violence is tolerated. and what i really feel where the church has contributed the most is that substance is overlooked because what really matters is presentation... how many mega churches do we have in this country? it's absolutely mind boggling how people justify million dollar easter and christmas pageants every year. is that really following the teachings of christ? think of how many needy people could benefit from the amount of money spent for the sake of "christian entertainment" the church forgot what it's most important and humanistic call was
matt. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

if religion spent it's time and effort doing this instead of worrying about gaining control over peoples lives, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, would we?

 

[waitasec]

@waitasec

You have a terrible problem in addressing direct questions and since there aren't any athiest that actually can read and discuss I will leave this thread

oh please, stop blaming others for your own short comings
:bonk: