What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[Poisonshady313]

I'm saying it loud and I'm saying it proud: smokydot knows not of what he speaks. All the bolds, underlines, references to previous posts, and unmitigated arrogance won't change that.

The fourteenth is a day that is being very sloppily referred to as "Passover". This should not be.

The 14th, in the afternoon, is the time when the Passover offering is slaughtered. There is no special name for this day. It's just "before Passover".

The 7 day festival that begins at sundown, when it becomes the 15th, is called Passover. Alternately, it may also be called the festival of unleavened bread. You can call it Aunt Sally if it makes you happy, but the fact remains that there was no feast on the 14th.

When the sun sets and it becomes the 15th, that's when the period of time called "Passover" begins. There is no special name designated for the time before Passover when the Qorban Pesach (passover offering) is slaughtered.

 

[fallingblood]

I know it doesn't agree with the myriad of translations out here, which all use "twilight" instead of "afternoon."
Check out Ex 12:6 in your own Bible.

Wasn't the question.


Show any of your claims to be true. There is only one that I've admitted to being wrong, and it does nothing to my original argument anyway. All I hear from you is garbage.

 

[Poisonshady313]

But your translation of Exodus is incorrect, causing you to incorrectly locate the Passover meal on the 15th.

No, it is not incorrect. It's more correct than any translation you've ever read in your life.


When it's translated directly from the language it was written in by people who are masters of the language, it's rather foolish to suggest it's inferior to something that has gone through several different languages on the path from Hebrew to English by people who rely on concordances.

The Passover meal was on Passover, Nisan 14.

It most certainly was not.

 

[dogsgod]

Because this isn't a myth. If you want to subscribe the the Christ-Myth, that's fine. However, you should prove it first. There are various threads on just that subject, and since the general consensus is that Jesus did indeed exist, I feel no reason to prove that here.

The story of the Son of God is a myth. It's amazing that it has to be stated, but then, religion does that to people.

 

[fallingblood]

The story of the Son of God is a myth. It's amazing that it has to be stated, but then, religion does that to people.

Which Son of god? Alexander the Great? Augustus? Seriously, do you want to play on this tired argument?

Please, if it is so obvious, start a thread and show us why the Christ-Myth is correct.

Also, it's not just the religious who accept that Jesus lived.

 

[fallingblood]

I'm saying it loud and I'm saying it proud: smokydot knows not of what he speaks. All the bolds, underlines, references to previous posts, and unmitigated arrogance won't change that.

The fourteenth is a day that is being very sloppily referred to as "Passover". This should not be.

The 14th, in the afternoon, is the time when the Passover offering is slaughtered. There is no special name for this day. It's just "before Passover".

The 7 day festival that begins at sundown, when it becomes the 15th, is called Passover. Alternately, it may also be called the festival of unleavened bread. You can call it Aunt Sally if it makes you happy, but the fact remains that there was no feast on the 14th.

When the sun sets and it becomes the 15th, that's when the period of time called "Passover" begins. There is no special name designated for the time before Passover when the Qorban Pesach (passover offering) is slaughtered.

First, I just want to say that I'm not going to debate what you're saying. I know when someone is more informed than I am, and you certainly are in this situation. I do have a question though.

If I said the Day of Preparation for the Passover (I'm aware it's not an official title), what day would you take that to be? Would it be right to assume it was the day before the Passover celebration, or the 14th? Or could it be assumed to be Passover?

Also, can the Feast of Unleavened bread, by itself, as in ignoring the 15th, be called Passover?

Mainly, I was just wondering if you can straighten out some problems here. Also, it would be nice, for myself, just to have more information on this.

 

[Beta]

The 14th, in the afternoon, is the time when the Passover offering is slaughtered. There is no special name for this day. It's just "before Passover"........ There is no special name designated for the time before Passover when the Qorban Pesach (passover offering) is slaughtered.

True - there is no special name given to that day but it was known to be the ' preparation of the Passover 'even to Jesus and the Apostles Mat.26v17; Joh.19v 14,31. I really can not see why people argue so much about it. :no: It also ' pinpoints ' the day on which Jesus was crucified and killed as our Passover.

 

[Onlooker]

What Day was Jesus Crucified? I raised this question in another thread. It was claimed that there were no disagreements in the Bible, or the story of Jesus. As I have done on various occasions, I raised this question, on what day was Jesus crucified?

Great Question, but why? If it is to signify a day you will celebrate, it is obvious God is not into celebrated dates for humans. His time clocks are the heavens and seasons. If a celebration you want, read and celebrate his Festivals. If it is to prove Jesus as the Messiah? Not going to happen until the Messiah ben David brings in the Messianic Era. (Messiah ben Joseph is what Yeshua/Jesus accomplished the first go around). Is it to show inconsistency in the English translation of the Tanakh? You’re not the first to understand the Lion cannot be caged, Hebrew has a depth that simple translations cannot do it justice. If it is to prove this Creator/creation myth, you will have better luck proving the Big Bang. Both are not subject to the scientific process, but by the way, the more accurate your scientific instruments are, the more the “Copenhagen Interpretation” occurs.
If it is to have great conversations with awesome people, than, “all righty then”.

 

[Beta]

As we see from Lev.23; the Feast Days of the Lord are certainly instituted for man - including the Sabbath and Passover.
One a 'weekly' reminder of God's plan for man and the other a 'yearly memorial' of Jesus' sacrifice for us.:yes:

 

[Poisonshady313]

First, I just want to say that I'm not going to debate what you're saying. I know when someone is more informed than I am, and you certainly are in this situation. I do have a question though.

If I said the Day of Preparation for the Passover (I'm aware it's not an official title), what day would you take that to be? Would it be right to assume it was the day before the Passover celebration, or the 14th? Or could it be assumed to be Passover?

The 14th. Not Passover.

Also, can the Feast of Unleavened bread, by itself, as in ignoring the 15th, be called Passover?

What do you mean ignoring the 15th? Passover, AKA the Feast of Unleavened Bread, begins on the 15th.

There is no such feast on the 14th.

Mainly, I was just wondering if you can straighten out some problems here. Also, it would be nice, for myself, just to have more information on this.

No problem.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The 14th. Not Passover.

What do you mean ignoring the 15th? Passover, AKA the Feast of Unleavened Bread, begins on the 15th.

There is no such feast on the 14th.

No problem.

To clarify, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is eaten on the 15th, is the same meal where the lamb is eaten. The same lamb that was slaughtered on the 14th.

 

[smokydot]

First, I just want to say I'm not going to debate what you're saying. I know when someone is more informed than I am, and you certainly are in this situation.
I do have a question though.
If I said the Day of Preparation (I'm aware it's not an official title), what day would you take that to be? Would it be right to assume it was the day before the Passover celebration, or the 14th? Or could it be assumed to be Passover?

For more information, that was addressed post #158.

First, the Passover lamb was sacrificed and roasted in the evening of the 14th, and then eaten the night of the 14th.

The following Passover day of the 14th was the Day of Preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the day Jesus was crucified.

The clear evidence for the above dates is the testimony of all four gospels that Jesus ate the Passover meal before he died, and
that he died on the day before the Saturday Sabbath of the 15th, which was the first day of the seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread.

So that's after the Passover meal and before the 15th, which has to be the 14th, as well as the day of Passover
All four gospels give this account.

Now regarding your question, you can assume neither, for Passover in the time of Jesus could mean three things:
1) Passover - Nisan 14, one-day feast
2) Unleavened Bread - Nisan 15-21, seven-day feast (which is its meaning in your question, and is why the Day of Preparation is day before (14th) for Unleavened Bread on the 15th).
3) both feasts together - Nisan 14-21, eight days of feasts

And none of these are used the same in the different gospels.

Then Unleavened Bread in the NT could mean two things:
1) Unleavened Bread - Nisan 15-21, seven-day feast, or
2) both feasts - Nisan 14-21, eight days of feasts

Also can the Feast of Unleavened Bread, by itself, as in ignoring the 14th, be called Passover?

1) By the time of the NT, Unleavened Bread was often called Passover, but that is not the name it was given when it was legislated in Lev 23:4-8.
2) It seems the legislated names were correctly used for 800-900 years before there was abbreviation of them into just Passover to refer to any of the three meanings given above,in second response.

But by the time of the NT, the abbreviations were virtually interchangeable, and have to be sorted out according to their origins in the OT,
where the legislation of them in Leviticus gives the correct nomenclature and understanding of them.

Mainly, I was just wondering if you could straighten out some problems here. Also, it would be nice, for myself, just to have more information on this.

There is interesting information on Jesus' connection to Passover in posts #178 and #179, brought to mind by Onlooker's posts.

 

[fallingblood]

There is no such feast on the 14th.

Sorry for that. I meant the 15th. When talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread, can you leave out the 15th, and then call the rest Passover?

 

[fallingblood]

That is very honest.

Wasn't talking to you. Maybe you want to actually read the post.

 

[waitasec]

Where did that come from? . .and why wouldn't they?

The Constitution guarantees our rights.

didn't you say...

Did you miss the believers "are NOT morally superior there"?

that's what i mean.
just as long as your religious beliefs stay clear out of peoples inalienable rights simply because believers are not morally superior

consider this.
whenever someone of faith acts as though they are morally superior, which is a fallacy as i have pointed out, where do they get the idea that it is their duty to impose on other peoples rights?
from their lack of faith in god perhaps? but they are not morally superior, as you have said yourself.

tell me, was the emancipation proclamation, civil rights and equal rights for women rightly subjected to religious dogma? i know that the religious helped pave the way with civil rights and the emancipation of the slaves...but you cannot deny that all of these RIGHTS were also being subjected by religious dogma.
i see 3 things...
1. denial; using the believers right to their opinion, and to assume their opinion is morally superior than others.
2. fear; when someone tries to take control over someone else's right it is because of fear
and it stems from
3. lack of faith; since they are of the opinion of being morally superior they are helping god. does god really need help? can one be morally superior? or do they lack faith in god?

 

[smokydot]

Wasn't talking to you.

Yeah, I got that, but the information provided in post #212 is corrective of Poisonshady313, based on five translations and two Greek texts.

The correction is: Passover lamb was sacrified in the evening of the 14th, eaten the night of the 14th, and the following Passover day Jesus was crucified.

 

[fallingblood]

Yeah, I got that, but the information provided in post #212 is corrective of Poisonshady313, based on five translations and two Greek texts.

The correction is: Passover lamb was sacrified in the evening of the 14th, eaten the night of the 14th, and the following Passover day Jesus was crucified.

So you read Greek? And your translations are what? You've mentioned KJV, which is simply horrible. You've also mentioned NIV, which is an apologetic mess. And why waste time with a Greek translation of a Hebrew text?

I'm taking Poisonshady's word on this. The reason being that he is Jewish and has shown his knowledge on the subject. I have no reason to believe that he is going against what Judaism teaches, or the majority belief of Jews. Thus, I think it is reasonable to assume that what he is saying, most Jews would agree with. And because of that, I see no reason to disagree with what he says about Passover, as he celebrates it. I doubt he's doing it wrong. And I doubt he is confused about it at all.

More so, if he doesn't read Hebrew (I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did), just know some of the translations that you use, I would hold his in higher regard.

 

[smokydot]

So you read Greek? And your translations are what? You've mentioned KJV, which is simply horrible. You've also mentioned NIV, which is an apologetic mess. And why waste time with a Greek translation of a Hebrew text?

I'm taking Poisonshady's word on this. The reason being that he is Jewish and has shown his knowledge on the subject. I have no reason to believe that he is going against what Judaism teaches, or the majority belief of Jews.

And of course, they have nothing vested in trying to show that Jesus the Christ was not the Passover Lamb, sacrificed on Passover.
Even the NT reports their long-standing denial. . .not exactly an unbiased source on the subject.
Nor is it surprising you prefer that source, in light of your motive to show the NT to be fraught with error. . .and not exactly an unbiased pursuit of the subject.

Birds of a feather flock together.

Thus, I think it is reasonable to assume that what he is saying, most Jews would agree with. And because of that, I see no reason to disagree with what he says about Passover, as he celebrates it.

Are you sure about that?

I doubt he's doing it wrong. And I doubt he is confused about it at all.
More so, if he doesn't read Hebrew (I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did), just know some of the translations that you use, I would hold his in higher regard.

The translations with which I am familiar are used throughout Christendom. So Christendom has no good translations?
What English translations would you recommend?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Sorry for that. I meant the 15th. When talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread, can you leave out the 15th, and then call the rest Passover?

You can't leave out the 15th.

Look at it this way:

The 7 day festival known as Passover is kicked off by the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Nisan.


Again:

Exodus 12:8
They shall eat the flesh on that night - roasted over the fire - and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs shall they eat it.


Exodus 12:14-16
This day shall become a remembrance for you and you shall celebrate it as a festival for the Lord; for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you celebrate it. For a seven-day period shall you eat unleavened bread, but on the previous day you shall nullify the leaven from your homes; for anyone who eats leavened food- that soul shall be cut off from Israel, from the first day to the seventh day.

On the first day shall be a holy convocation and on the seventh day shall be a holy convocation for you, no work may be done on them, except for what must be eaten for any person - only that may be done for you.

Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening shall you eat matzos, until the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.


From 15 to 21 is 7 days. And we learn from verse 12:15 that the leaven is nullified on the previous day. Which is why Matzah will be eaten from the 14th teill the 21st. But the Feast... that's on the 15th... the day of holy convocation. That's when the lamb that was slaughtered during the daytime was eaten.

 

[Poisonshady313]

And of course, they have nothing vested in trying to show that Jesus the Christ was not the Passover Lamb, sacrificed on Passover.

I can assure you, when the scholars who translate from Hebrew to English in editions of the Tanach meant to be read by Jews, they do so without Jesus on their mind. At all. Which means, they didn't even have it in mind to try to delegitimize Jesus.

Let me quote you from the book I use:

The first goal of a translation must be accuracy; no effort was spared in the successful quest of that goal. Scriptural Hebrew is laden with nuance and meaning. The language is replete with allusion. The scholars involved in this task were consumed with the sense of mission - that they were dealing with the sacred and eternal word of God, not mere "literature"; that their task was not to rewrite the text, but to convey its meaning faithfully. The translation balances the lofty beauty of the Hebrew with the need to provide a literate and comprehensible English rendering. Where a choice had to be made, we preferred fidelity to the text over inaccurate simplicity, but occasionally we had to stray from the literal translation or Hebrew syntax in order to capture the essence of a phrase or to make it intelligible in English. We feel that the translators have succeeded admirably.

The reader will note that this translation very often varies from other ArtScroll translations of Scripture. This was necessitated by the nature of this work. In standard ArtScroll works, wherever the Hebrew was obscure, the extensive commentary would clarify and give varying opinions on its meaning; consequently, the translation could remain close to the Hebrew and rely on the commentary. For this edition, however, the translation had to stand on its own and be clear without resort to the notes, wherever possible.

So Christendom has no good translations?

No.

Because unlike the Jewish scholars who faithfully translate the text from its original language without an axe to grind, it can be very easily said, and very easily believed, that Christian translators put their own spin on things in order to show that Jesus is who Christians say he is.