What do you associate with the word "Pagan" ?

[Storm]

Chicks and dudes dressed all in black that wear pentagrams and act all depressed

Well, at least you watched The Craft....

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What I really think when I hear the word "pagan" in the context of the West: glorified agnostics

 

[Storm]

What I really think when I hear the word "pagan" in the context of the West: glorified agnostics

Glorified how? Agnostic how?

 

[Polarbear]

That description is actually accurate on quite a few individuals.

 

[Storm]

That description is actually accurate on quite a few individuals.

Which description, glorified agnostic? Kindly correct or elaborate, 'cause I don't get it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Glorified how? Agnostic how?

I fail to see how the lives of self-described pagans really differs from agnostics and atheists in the West apart from some religious practices. The pagans I've talked with generally believe truth is relative, their value systems appear to nearly identical especially in regards to sexuality, and they generally lean on their own understanding as opposed to a "diety" when it's time to make important life decisions. From what I can see, paganism is more about secular Americans trying to fill the void they feel in their heart created by the absence of a god/God in their lives.

 

[Polarbear]

Well I didn't exactly mean like that, I was more thinking in terms of many Pagans being atheists, doubting or more concerned with moral/political issues then religious ones.

 

[Storm]

I fail to see how the lives of self-described pagans really differs from agnostics and atheists in the West apart from some religious practices.

And you don't think "apart from some religious practices" undermines the description "agnostic?"

To me, that sentence makes about as much sense as "this would be a desert, if not for that ocean."

The pagans I've talked with generally believe truth is relative, their value systems appear to nearly identical especially in regards to sexuality, and they generally lean on their own understanding as opposed to a "diety" when it's time to make important life decisions.

The first point is not dependent on any religious affiliation, as there are relativists and absolutists everywhere, even in Christianity.

Every pagan I've ever known believed that sexuality was a sacred thing. I don't see how that's remotely atheistic.

Pagans are no more or less likely to make decisions on their own than any other religion.

From what I can see, paganism is more about secular Americans trying to fill the void they feel in their heart created by the absence of a god/God in their lives.

Look closer.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And you don't think "apart from some religious practices" undermines the description "agnostic?"

Actually, for me it implies that these practices are more superficial than anything else. Sure they may create farm happy feelings inside the practicioner but I could light up a joint and I'd feel a little happier too. I want to see real life change. I want to hear about people who's marriages were completely broken and then they encountered their creator (I'm keeping it general because I assume pagans believe in a creator as well) at which time it was put on the path toward restoration. I want to hear about the person that could never find it in their heart to forgive their enemies until they encountered their creator. I want to hear about people who were freed from all kinds of addiction when they met their creator. I'm not impressed with testimonies of warm happy feelings if nothing else accompanies them.

Every pagan I've ever known believed that sexuality was a sacred thing. I don't see how that's remotely atheistic.

Warm happy feelings aside, my point is that pagans and agnostics/atheists generally agree on the context they feel expressing sexuality is appropriate.

 

[Storm]

Actually, for me it implies that these practices are more superficial than anything else. Sure they may create farm happy feelings inside the practicioner but I could light up a joint and I'd feel a little happier too. I want to see real life change. I want to hear about people who's marriages were completely broken and then they encountered their creator (I'm keeping it general because I assume pagans believe in a creator as well) at which time it was put on the path toward restoration. I want to hear about the person that could never find it in their heart to forgive their enemies until they encountered their creator. I want to hear about people who were freed from all kinds of addiction when they met their creator. I'm not impressed with testimonies of warm happy feelings if nothing else accompanies them.

So, basically... you feel free to sneer at anyone's faith if it doesn't serve as a psychological crutch? You think it's a good thing to be a whimpering, dysfunctional heap without God?

Whatever happened to believing in something 'cause you think it's true?

Warm happy feelings aside, my point is that pagans and agnostics/atheists generally agree on the context they feel expressing sexuality is appropriate

OK, I'm going to interpret this vague and confused sentence as "they aren't heterosexist." Feel free to correct as necessary.

Most pagans aren't heterosexist. Some are. We all get our bigots, that's just life. However, you're quite right that neopaganism itself provides no justification for heterosexism. I don't see why you think that's a requirement for religion, though.

 

[Draka]

Actually, for me it implies that these practices are more superficial than anything else. Sure they may create farm happy feelings inside the practicioner but I could light up a joint and I'd feel a little happier too. I want to see real life change. I want to hear about people who's marriages were completely broken and then they encountered their creator (I'm keeping it general because I assume pagans believe in a creator as well) at which time it was put on the path toward restoration. I want to hear about the person that could never find it in their heart to forgive their enemies until they encountered their creator. I want to hear about people who were freed from all kinds of addiction when they met their creator. I'm not impressed with testimonies of warm happy feelings if nothing else accompanies them.

First off, what of the Christians who believe just because they happen to have "warm happy feelings" and nothing else? No vast turn around? Nothing else needed in their lives? Just believe because it feels right to them? Are they not on the right path because they have not experienced "real life change" along with their belief?

Secondly, would you even believe any Pagan who would attest to those very things you think we don't experience? Do you think that Christians are alone in having deep and meaningful spiritual and religious experiences which help guide lives?

Warm happy feelings aside, my point is that pagans and agnostics/atheists generally agree on the context they feel expressing sexuality is appropriate.

Well, what is wrong about expressing sexuality? You speak as if something is wrong with it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

OK, I'm going to interpret this vague and confused sentence as "they aren't heterosexist." Feel free to correct as necessary.

.

You could also say that they don't justify sodomy. Don't forget that theres are all types of heterosexual sex that many of us consider inappropriate as well. And spare me the typical bully tactics of throwing around words like "bigot"

 

[Storm]

You could also say that they don't justify sodomy. Don't forget that theres are all types of heterosexual sex that many of us consider inappropriate as well. And spare me the typical bully tactics of throwing around words like "bigot"

Who was I bullying, exactly?

If I misinterpreted that rather problematic sentence, you can always clarify. If I didn't, you don't get to whine at me for picking my own words.

 

[horizon]

Actually, for me it implies that these practices are more superficial than anything else. Sure they may create farm happy feelings inside the practicioner but I could light up a joint and I'd feel a little happier too. I want to see real life change. I want to hear about people who's marriages were completely broken and then they encountered their creator (I'm keeping it general because I assume pagans believe in a creator as well) at which time it was put on the path toward restoration. I want to hear about the person that could never find it in their heart to forgive their enemies until they encountered their creator. I want to hear about people who were freed from all kinds of addiction when they met their creator. I'm not impressed with testimonies of warm happy feelings if nothing else accompanies them.

So let’s say that someone was in the midst of a breakdown stemming from untreated trauma as a child. This breakdown destroyed their entire life, everything. One day this person who was questioning their reason to live went outside laid on the grass and gazed into the sun, and for the first time felt a connection with the divine, felt a calmness in their soul, and a new strength to keep fighting. And when this person grasped that connection, knew instantly what their purpose was. After that day everything changed, everything that was destroyed was rebuilt, but this time on a foundation that will never break because now there is no reason for faith, there is certainty.

Would that be valid in your eyes?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So let’s say that someone was in the midst of a breakdown stemming from untreated trauma as a child. This breakdown destroyed their entire life, everything. One day this person who was questioning their reason to live went outside laid on the grass and gazed into the sun, and for the first time felt a connection with the divine, felt a calmness in their soul, and a new strength to keep fighting. And when this person grasped that connection, knew instantly what their purpose was. After that day everything changed, everything that was destroyed was rebuilt, but this time on a foundation that will never break because now there is no reason for faith, there is certainty.

Would that be valid in your eyes?

Please explain the connection between a "foundation that will never break" and having no reason for faith

 

[Draka]

Would you care to address my points King?

 

[Storm]

Or mine?

 

[horizon]

Please explain the connection between a "foundation that will never break" and having no reason for faith

I had an experience at the beginning of my spiritual journey, a moment when everything became clear; I no longer needed to have faith because I had my proof. My previous foundation was built with doubt.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I had an experience at the beginning of my spiritual journey, a moment when everything became clear; I no longer needed to have faith because I had my proof. My previous foundation was built with doubt.

My thought is that a foundation that is secure whether you believe it or not and vice versa, an unstable foundation continues to be unstable regardless of what one believes about it.

 

[Storm]

My thought is that a foundation that is secure whether you believe it or not and vice versa, an unstable foundation continues to be unstable regardless of what one believes about it.

That's a very long winded way of saying nothing.