What do you associate with the word "Pagan" ?

[-Peacemaker-]

That's a very long winded way of saying nothing.

Horizon felt that building a foundation with doubt somehow influenced its integrity. My point is that one can be completely confident of the foundation upon which they are building but if it's a weak and flimsy then one's confidence in it will only lead to their destruction

 

[Storm]

Horizon felt that building a foundation with doubt somehow influenced its integrity. My point is that one can be completely confident of the foundation upon which they are building but if it's a weak and flimsy then one's confidence in it will only lead to their destruction

And what do you propose we use to gauge the strength of the foundation of one's faith, if not confidence?

Or we could just cut to the chase: can non-Christian faith be legitimate?

 

[Draka]

Horizon felt that building a foundation with doubt somehow influenced its integrity. My point is that one can be completely confident of the foundation upon which they are building but if it's a weak and flimsy then one's confidence in it will only lead to their destruction

You mean much like putting all one's faith and confidence into the literal interpretation of the bible no matter how extremely flawed it is to take such a book literally? That kind of reasoning? That to do such will only lead to their destruction because eventually they will have to face reality and once they do so then their world will shatter around them and come tumbling down like a poorly built house of cards? That kind of shotty foundation?

 

[horizon]

My thought is that a foundation that is secure whether you believe it or not and vice versa, an unstable foundation continues to be unstable regardless of what one believes about it.

I can only relate my experience, which of course will not be the same for others. You stated that in your experience pagans were generally superficial in relation to their practices that their happy feelings didn’t derive from what you would consider meaningful experiences, I wanted to give you an alternate view as someone who falls under the pagan umbrella.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And what do you propose we use to gauge the strength of the foundation of one's faith, if not confidence?

Or we could just cut to the chase: can non-Christian faith be legitimate?

This doesn't even make sense. If one builds a house on sand, how is the integrity of the structure made more firm just because they mistakened it for rock?

 

[Storm]

This doesn't even make sense. If one builds a house on sand, how is the integrity of the structure made more firm just because they mistakened it for rock?

This began when you questioned the legitimacy of pagan faith, not the veracity of theology. What is faith?

And do you really want to turn this into a "prove your theology" thread? For one thing, I don't think the op would appreciate that, and for another... well. Stone, glass house. Catch my drift?

So, I'll repeat the question: Do you consider the faith of any non-Christian believer to be legitimate?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You mean much like putting all one's faith and confidence into the literal interpretation of the bible no matter how extremely flawed it is to take such a book literally? That kind of reasoning? That to do such will only lead to their destruction because eventually they will have to face reality and once they do so then their world will shatter around them and come tumbling down like a poorly built house of cards? That kind of shotty foundation?

The Bible is a book with many different genres. The genre determines how we read a particular book.

 

[Draka]

The Bible is a book with many different genres. The genre determines how we read a particular book.

Oh, so you don't have me on ignore and you can read my posts. So, care to respond to my points I made before?

 

[Me Myself]

It requires faith in God to sit in a room and ask for enlightenment.

Not with some pretty easy and defined instruction manual. A six year old can figure out that one. That´s the easy road.

I don´t take the easy road, I take the right one.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

This began when you questioned the legitimacy of pagan faith, not the veracity of theology. What is faith?

And do you really want to turn this into a "prove your theology" thread? For one thing, I don't think the op would appreciate that, and for another... well. Stone, glass house. Catch my drift?

So, I'll repeat the question: Do you consider the faith of any non-Christian believer to be legitimate?

How do you define "legitimate faith"?

 

[Storm]

How do you define "legitimate faith"?

Real, actual.

ETA: iow, what separate believer from atheists & agnostics.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

First off, what of the Christians who believe just because they happen to have "warm happy feelings" and nothing else? No vast turn around? Nothing else needed in their lives? Just believe because it feels right to them? Are they not on the right path because they have not experienced "real life change" along with their belief?

I think that contradicts the definition of a true Christian. You have to remember that for Christians, this is about finding forgiveness, not about getting some high.

Secondly, would you even believe any Pagan who would attest to those very things you think we don't experience? Do you think that Christians are alone in having deep and meaningful spiritual and religious experiences which help guide lives?

I'd want to hear about the actual changes/fruit that these deep and meaningful spiritual and religious experiences brought about before I agree that there is some significant worth in them. Something beyond "dude, I felt totally one with God".

 

[Storm]

I think that contradicts the definition of a true Christian. You have to remember that for Christians, this is about finding forgiveness, not about getting some high.

Seriously? Healthy, happy people can't have faith EVER?

That is seriously ****** up.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Real, actual.

ETA: iow, what separate believer from atheists & agnostics.

Everyone has faith in something. Typically the agnostic/atheist trusts himself and his own understanding of the world around him above the words of an alleged god/God. Are you askling me if I actually believe self described polytheists actually trust their gods?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Seriously? Healthy, happy people can't have faith EVER?

That is seriously ****** up.

How you can possibly read such nonsense into my post is beyond me.

 

[horizon]

I'd want to hear about the actual changes/fruit that these deep and meaningful spiritual and religious experiences brought about before I agree that there is some significant worth in them. Something beyond "dude, I felt totally one with God".

Ok, well I gave you an example.

 

[Storm]

How you can possibly read such nonsense into my post is beyond me.

Maybe because that's what you said? It's not enough to believe because it makes sense, it's only faith if God keeps you from falling apart.

 

[Storm]

Everyone has faith in something. Typically the agnostic/atheist trusts himself and his own understanding of the world around him above the words of an alleged god/God. Are you askling me if I actually believe self described polytheists actually trust their gods?

Along with every other religion that's not Christian, yes.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Along with every other religion that's not Christian, yes.

Of course I do. There all are kinds of epople who demonstrate trust in a higher power all over the world, sometimes through bizarre and drastic measures. Now whether or not I think that faith is misplaced is a different matter entirely. In this case, I am singling out Western pagans by calling them glorified agnostics because I actually have some experience dealing with them. Keep in mind that this is a generalization as well. I have no doubt that there are many pagans who've put all their chips on the god they worship as opposed to themselves but they appear to be the exception, not the norm.

 

[Storm]

Of course I do. There all are kinds of epople who demonstrate trust in a higher power all over the world, sometimes through bizarre and drastic measures. Now whether or not I think that faith is misplaced is a different matter entirely. In this case, I am singling out Western pagans by calling them glorified agnostics because I actually have some experience dealing with them. Keep in mind that this is a generalization as well. I have no doubt that there are many pagans who've put all their chips on the god they worship as opposed to themselves but they appear to be the exception, not the norm.

Do they? How many have you known (that you're aware of)?