what do you feel is wrong with homosexuality?

[Evandr]

Yet you have every time you say they shouldn't have the same rights as other married couples, and every time you call it a sin, you degrade them. You may not see it because you think there is nothing wrong with what you are saying, but you are hurting people every time you call them sinners and what they are doing is horrible.

There is absolutely not compassion in your posts, no love, just high-and-mightiness, which I must say, coming from a fellow LDS person is just disappointing.

This is really frustrating. I'm am not trying to judge anybody; I am only shining my light on commandment the same as everybody else in this forum is doing.

I have a great deal of compassion for all those to whom I talk, Lord knows I have my own crosses to bear and I do not place my position before God any higher than any body else. When the Lord calls something a sin would you ask me to deny it or try to cover it up? There would be no love in that for anybody involved. This earth life is finite, we only get one shot at this. If I stand idly by and watch others get lost in a mist of darkness, I believe that I would be held accountable by our great God for failure to act in every capacity of my soul to speak what I believe to be wisdom to my brothers and sisters.

I think what most people are failing to realize is that Jesus Christ is a KING, our King, and everybody’s King. He is not a president installed by the will of the people, He is no dictator that needs to maintain power by the devoted efforts of some army, He is the King. His word is law, there is no voting, there is no other by which salvation can come, there is no other path by which exaltation can be achieved. Either the laws are obeyed unto blessing or they are not unto denial of blessing. It's really that simple but many, in their frustration, find it hard to accept and so they lash out at anybody trying to make clear the commandments of our King.

Bishka, I am LDS and therefore I have standards and beliefs that for some can be hard to hear, let alone bear, but am I to blame for that? These are not my laws, I didn't make them up simply to make people feel bad. Lord knows that I wish there were some other way but here in this forum there is no other way.

People who debate with me in this forum are ever ready and willing to trip me up in my words and then accuse me for my weakness. My words have to have strength, conviction, and truth as best I can present it. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, it's sad that you would ask me to make weak the words of God as I engage in conversations made to enlighten scripture and educate the mind.

 

[sojourner]

Well, that was quick. Every time I stand and debate the subject of sexual orientation my opponents are forced to fall back and cry foul. I have learned from highly respected mentors that the strength of my position is easy to see and difficult to argue against, especially when trying to maintain some semblance of a religious platform.

Lack of compassion? maybe, but don't you see what's happening? too much compassion can kill a person when it allows them to blind themselves to the dangers of what they do. I do not judge the worth of the individual and I certainly do not consider anybody to be a second hand citizen, weather they know it or not these are precious brothers and sister of mine in the Lord and I will not mince words and play games when it come to serious transgressions that I believe will harm them and offend God. Our Heavenly Father is not wishy-washy with His commandments and neither shall I be in defense of them.

I haven't sought to degrade anybody, I haven’t engaged in name-calling, I haven’t resorted to the slings and arrows of innuendo and lambaste. I have only suffered by your lack of respect for my intelligence (please, no snide remarks, I haven’t called anybody stupid) as I positioned myself in no uncertain terms against what I believe to be wrong. Sometimes the necessary verbiage can cut to the quick so don't go blaming me for that.

I think that what I say will not be easily forgotten and the day may come that these may look back and be grateful that somebody stood against the tide.

So go ahead, stone me for my words, it wouldn’t be the first time someone got thrashed for speaking the truth.

But you have to meet people where they are -- not where you are. You must realize that one's sexual orientation is part of who they are. So when you denounce their orientation, you denounce them, as persons.

We are blaming you, and we are holding you accountable. We get to do that, since it's personhood that you're stepping on here. We don't give a flying rip what you believe are the commandments of God. If you don't wanna be gay, by all means, no one's twisting your arm.

It wouldn't be the first time a bully got thrashed for beating up on people, either.

 

[Evandr]

One of my main objections to God is he spends way too much time campaigning against such petty things as sodomy and not nearly enough time addressing such devastating things as poverty, plagues and wars. He seems morally confused.

God campaigns against nothing, He is our King and He provides commandments designed for our eternal good. Try as we might, we cannot escape the consequences of sin. It is man who insesently ignors His commandments that causes pain and suffering. The fact that you think the Lord is confused is a sure sign that, of your confusion, there is no doubt.

If God was so keen on the family unit, why did he create homosexuals? Or was he simply confused?

Our Heavenly Father did not create homosexuals. In the beginning we were all created on a level playing field, even Jesus Christ. From there we had a degree of agency to go in whatever direction we wanted. Jesus rose above all else and became the Christ, Lucifer sank below the rest and became the devil. Every form and influence existed in between. God certainly did not cause people to be homosexual and then command them not to be.

Does that mean I can rape women and girls so long as I marry them afterwards?

You are kidding by that question right? I said "within the bounds the Lord has set" - Anything that fails to keep His commandments is outside those bounds.

 

[Autodidact]

God's created male and female and specified to be fruitful and multiply the land.
What part of that equation do people not understand.

I thought God created everything and everyone. Who are we to flout His plan?

Where in that do you see his intention to have two men commit what is seemingly unnatural.

Define "unnatural."

The problem is society does'nt know anymore what is natural what is not, what is right and what is wrong.

I agree. If society realized that persecuting other people because of your own insecurity was morally wrong, the world would be a much better place. If only society realized that prejudice is not natural, we could all get along much better.

We live in a whatever feels good relative society,despite it's unclean,unnatural and unproductive nature.

Isn't it awful? Pollution, poverty, cruelty, genocide and barbarism. Let's work together to make the world a better place.

Did God create murderers, sodomites, thieves, idolatry.

Well--under your theology I guess He did, because He created everything, didn't He? To me: Of course not silly, there is no God.

If you believe you came from animals you'll act like one.

I thought homosexuality was unnatural? I thought you were in favor of things that are "natural." Why don't you tell us what you meant by that word.

It's nothing more than a means to an end, that end being gradification not procreation.

It's sad that you're not familiar with the idea of physical intimacy to express mutual love. I feel compassion for you, and hope you have the opportunity to experience it one day.

Juts like every abbhorent act in the eyes of God men indulge in, it's all for the mere pleasure of the moment and for personal sensual gain

Speak for yourself, roli. If you want to know what my sexual expression is for, feel free to ask me. I assure it's not what you think.

Place those male sheep on an island for the life span of whatever a sheep is 10 -20 yrs and we'll see how natural and productive and beneficial homosexual sheep are to the welfare of the sheep population when they start to die off.

So sex is just for the gross, animal purpose of reproduction then? That's so bestial. I think sex can serve a higher purpose of expressing and building love. Oh well, maybe that's a gay thing.

Yet ,I'm sure those who would conduct such a study would be themselves, gay or progay and when no one's looking would slip in sheep unawares and say, see, they are reproducing, they are living longer.It seems absurd to even imagine or for me to say such a thing,but if we want to believe something bad enough, nothing is impossible to imagine and create.

I'm sorry I have no idea what you were trying to say here.

If that's what you "choose " to believe, it does'nt make it true.

ditto to you.

Well maybe it's true in your eyes,but in God's well, you'll have the chane to ask him some day.

or not, depending on whether there is any such thing.

Who are we to tell God he made us that way when he has given us certain obvious indicators that have since been silenced in those who are proponets of such unnatural behaviors.

Exactly. God gave me certain obvious indicators of how He meant me to be, and I intend to follow them.

If a person can't see that 2 penis's don't equal new life and insist on calling that normal or natural in the eyes of God ,then this conversation is .....over!!!

Oh, I see, homosexual sex is not reproductive--that's your problem. Well, duh, roli, we all know that. Now if your sexuality is all about reproduction, then I feel sorry for you--and your sex partner. Some of us have advanced beyond that bestial level.

 

[Autodidact]

My only quibble is that if we were all gay, society would be dead in a couple of generations. I don't think that would worry anyone with a religious viewpoint including armageddon.

I don't think anyone realistically needs to worry about this. Only about 4% of the population is, has, and looks like will be gay, regardless of whether we are accepted as human beings or not.

Unless someone thinks that being gay is so obviously superior to being straight that if everyone were free to choose we would all choose to be gay? Anyone want to advocate that position?

 

[Autodidact]

WoW, that's a nice sarcastic demeaning way to welcome someone new.

Thank you.

You seem quite authoritive as well in.....well.....in every area, somewhat of an expertise but more authoritive than anything on just about every topic I have seen you involved in.

Thank you so much. I do my best.

Did I catch that you said you read the bible, do you believe what it is you read or just read it to philosophize about it.

I've read it. Well, maybe not every page, but most. No, I don't believe much of it--it appears to be largely allegory and ancient myths. Some of it is beautiful literature though.

 

[Autodidact]

There seems to be some discussion here already, but I just chip in my own view of it...

While I am not Christian per se, I do not think homosexuality is sin in God's eyes. I am not going to go too into why I think this way, but just saying it is my own conclusion after what I have learned from life, other Christians, Bible etc.

Thank you for sharing your very personal perspective. Good post, not the usual arguing we see in these threads.

I wonder if some men have the same experience and come to the opposite conclusion, and if these aren't the hypocritical anti-gay proponents that are so common.

 

[sojourner]

Quite the contrary, sodomy is sodomy regardless of the gender. The family unit is the focus of God’s plan for His children; anything that threatens the organization and propagation of the family unit as God has set it up is a sin, pure and simple.

As long as a person keeps their appetites and passions within the bounds that the Lord has set they can do pretty much whatever they want.

So...I guess a man and wife who cannot have children are inherently flawed and sinful?
Or is there some proviso that mitigates your statement that You're going to make me aware of?

Do these appetites and passions include spousal and child abuse -- as long as it's kept in the family?

 

[Francine]

Unless someone thinks that being gay is so obviously superior to being straight that if everyone were free to choose we would all choose to be gay? Anyone want to advocate that position?

Being lesbian is an advantage in space colonies. Given a turkey baster and an initial inventory of frozen sperm, women can do everything men can do, but men cannot reproduce. An all-lesbian colony on Mars will use the life-support resources more efficiently than any colony with a mixed crew.

 

[sojourner]

God's original plan was male and female paired to be one flesh. This was by design and intent. This is the natural means of procreation.

This arrangement is held with high esteem. Violation against this arrangement are condemned. This includes heterosexual premarital and extramarital sex. The extramarital is called adultery and is a violation to the covenant of husband and wife.

Homosexual is a specific form of fornication. It is called strange flesh and is condemned by God himself as an abomination.

It is a perversion of both design and law. It flies in the face of God (the creator) and his intent.

Says you.

 

[Evandr]

But you have to meet people where they are -- not where you are. You must realize that one's sexual orientation is part of who they are. So when you denounce their orientation, you denounce them, as persons.

I don't understand what you mean by meeting people where they are. Are you telling me that I am giving meat wherein I should be giving milk toast? On reflection you might be right - perhaps those about whom you speak are not ready to hear what I have to tell them.

We are blaming you, and we are holding you accountable. We get to do that, since it's personhood that you're stepping on here. We don't give a flying rip what you believe are the commandments of God. If you don't wanna be gay, by all means, no one's twisting your arm.

The Lord will also hold me accountable. I must concede that you have made it clear that these here are not ready for greater council. In a world where an individual is taught line upon line, precept upon precept, it has become painfully clear here that the foundation of lines and precepts are not ready to support the weight of what I have said.

It wouldn't be the first time a bully got thrashed for beating up on people, either.

Yes, yes I can see where you would call me a bully, you are not prepared for my presence here, you have a long way to go before you can adequately shoulder the weightier commandments of God. But I have faith in you and others; I believe that many will make the journey to greater things in time.

Now, I fully expect that you are going to respond to this post. I would only ask that you keep it level headed because I have only returned to you in kind that which you gave to me first, this is a debate forum after all.

 

[sojourner]

God's original plan was male and female paired to be one flesh. This was by design and intent. This is the natural means of procreation.

This arrangement is held with high esteem. Violation against this arrangement are condemned. This includes heterosexual premarital and extramarital sex. The extramarital is called adultery and is a violation to the covenant of husband and wife.

Homosexual is a specific form of fornication. It is called strange flesh and is condemned by God himself as an abomination.

It is a perversion of both design and law. It flies in the face of God (the creator) and his intent.

Says you.

 

[Mike182]

Evandr, it looks like my post got lost in the middle somewhere and you maybe didn't see it. anyway, here it is again for you:

In short: eliminate the problem by keeping God's commandments and you eliminate the associated ills that come from failure to do so. Cure the problem and the side effects will take care of themselves.

which problem are you referring to, and in what way would you like to eliminate it?

 

[sojourner]

It's nothing more than a means to an end, that end being gradification not procreation.
Juts like every abbhorent act in the eyes of God men indulge in, it's all for the mere pleasure of the moment and for personal sensual gain

You're blurring issues. Many married, heterosexual people treat sex this same way.

Tell the thousands of homosexuals in long-term, loving and committed relationships that their relationship is "merely" anything, let alone for self-gratification of baser pleasures only.

 

[Evandr]

So...I guess a man and wife who cannot have children are inherently flawed and sinful?
Or is there some proviso that mitigates your statement that You're going to make me aware of?

Do these appetites and passions include spousal and child abuse -- as long as it's kept in the family?

Do the best you can to keep the commandments of God and it will be enough. The ramifications of that statement are huge. The catch is - is that failure to strengthen yourself so that what you can do becomes greater over time will not release you from failure to do better tomorrow that which you can do well today. It's called growth and we are all expected to grow.

 

[lkb817]

Hi everyone...new here to these boards!

As a lesbian, my question is this:

Why do certain religious groups want to keep my partner and me from marrying? Why is there a fear of treating others equally?

I imagine that those opposed would be outraged if they were told they couldn't marry the person they loved.

 

[sojourner]

I don't understand what you mean by meeting people where they are. Are you telling me that I am giving meat wherein I should be giving milk toast? On reflection you might be right - perhaps those about whom you speak are not ready to hear what I have to tell them.

What I mean is that not everyone holds your standards. You don't get to arbitrarily say that "my standards are higher than yours, therefore, I'm justified in saying what I say to you low-lifes."

I'm not saying that you're giving meat instead of milktoast. I'm saying that you're covering up the meat with horse crap and cramming it down our throats.

The Lord will also hold me accountable. I must concede that you have made it clear that these here are not ready for greater council. In a world where an individual is taught line upon line, precept upon precept, it has become painfully clear here that the foundation of lines and precepts are not ready to support the weight of what I have said.

Physics tells us that for every structure there is an appropriate weight. The weight of self-righteous judgment upon fellow human beings is not tolerated well, when the structure was designed (by God) for love and acceptance.

Yes, yes I can see where you would call me a bully, you are not prepared for my presence here, you have a long way to go before you can adequately shoulder the weightier commandments of God. But I have faith in you and others; I believe that many will make the journey to greater things in time.

Oh, my! We are self-important, aren't we? Is your ivory tower comfortable enough for you? Have you so far removed yourself from the sinners of the world that you conveniently can no longer see them clearly?

Perhaps if you pulled your head out past your hopelessly tight sphincter once in a while, you'd find that the world is full of people who have dealt a long time ago with their issues surrounding homosexuality and their issues with righteousness. If you see us as a long way off, it's because we left you sitting in the dust long, long ago. We stop, turn, and call you to hurry up and join us in a world that knows God as tolerant, loving, accepting, and celebratory of us, no matter who we are. Perhaps, like the Pharisees, who insisted upon carrying around the dead weight of keeping the commandments, and could not follow Jesus, you, too, are being held back by an allegience to commandments that were fulfilled two thousand years ago. A cross might be a better weight for you to bear.

Perhaps you will be one of the many who will make that journey to greater things, in time.

 

[Mike182]

Hi everyone...new here to these boards!

As a lesbian, my question is this:

Why do certain religious groups want to keep my partner and me from marrying? Why is there a fear of treating others equally?

I imagine that those opposed would be outraged if they were told they couldn't marry the person they loved.

a lot of us have been asking that, and there seems to be no decent enough answer to explain the lack of gay rights in this area.

welcome to the forums

 

[Sunstone]

Hi everyone...new here to these boards!

As a lesbian, my question is this:

Why do certain religious groups want to keep my partner and me from marrying? Why is there a fear of treating others equally?

I imagine that those opposed would be outraged if they were told they couldn't marry the person they loved.

Welcome to the Forums!

I would suggest that many religious groups want to keep you and your partner from marrying because those groups don't have a very profound spirituality to occupy their time -- so they substitute moral condemnation of one group or another.

 

[Autodidact]

Do the best you can to keep the commandments of God and it will be enough.

Great. Now, where is that no-lesbianism commandment again? [/quote]The ramifications of that statement are huge. The catch is - is that failure to strengthen yourself so that what you can do becomes greater over time will not release you from failure to do better tomorrow that which you can do well today. It's called growth and we are all expected to grow.[/quote] I wish you the best in your efforts to grow.