What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[EiNsTeiN]

So ignore everything that actual Muslims actually do, and just read the Qu'ran? O.K., although I suspect there's some relationship between Islam and Muslims, but if you say so.

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times...
2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will...
And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.
2: 282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.
4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
4:176 They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.

Now you want to know what kind of problems I have with what the Qu'ran says about women? Or are you going to say something about the Qu'ran being above question, being the Word of God and all?

I prefere a woman would answer those questions..sorry..

And I'll just ask you again: what religion is practiced in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan?

Officially, Islam

What do the past generations matter? Yes the Islamic world used to be great. Full of tolerance, rich in culture and science. However this is no longer relevant because it is the here and now we are talking about. In the here and now Islamic terrorism is running riot. I mean people wanted to kill a teacher for letting her children call a teddy bear Muhammad. When a cartoon of Muhammad was shown an embassy was blown up!Then there were the London Bombings, and of course 9/11. All of this was done in the name of Islam.

It matters, cuz those previous nice ages, people used to follow Islam..

Now, non of the muslim countries follow the islamic teachings..

O.K. Is Pakistan a Muslim country? Are women in Pakistan allowed to take up any job they wish? Or are there rules about where they can and cannot work? How are rape victims treated there? Do honor killings take place there? Are they punished? How do the Hudood laws work? Who is in favor of keeping them, the Islamists, or the more secular aspects of Pakistani society?

I guess women can work wherever they want there, and they can drive..

Honor killings (same as in Egypt) are all not an official thing, it's a habit people used to do since ever, and is irrilevant to Islam..

 

[Autodidact]

Now, non of the muslim countries follow the islamic teachings..

This kind of argumentation just makes me want to tear my hair out. You (someone) asks what I don't like about Islam. When I tell you all the horrible things done by Muslims in the name of Islam, you say, oh, that's not real Islam. Real Islam is good. It's that fake Islam that we actually have that's the problem. O.K., I have a HUGE problem with that fake Islam. It just so happens that we use the word "Islam" to refer to that. And we call those people who do that stuff "Muslims." Maybe you need to make up a new word for your religion, since it apparently has nothing to do with what we call Muslims actually do.

Now, what are you doing to persuade the governments and peoples of those countries practicing fake Islam to change and adopt your version, real Islam?

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

O.K. Is Pakistan a Muslim country? Are women in Pakistan allowed to take up any job they wish? Or are there rules about where they can and cannot work? How are rape victims treated there? Do honor killings take place there? Are they punished? How do the Hudood laws work? Who is in favor of keeping them, the Islamists, or the more secular aspects of Pakistani society?

Pakistan is an Islamic country in name. Make sure you have no doubts about that. The country is not least bit truly Islamic. Hudood laws are biased against women are created by those leading people who want to subjugate women in name of Islam. I curse them!

 

[Autodidact]

I prefere a woman would answer those questions..sorry..

I didn't ask a question. I quoted passages from the Qu'ran. Those aren't questions; they're facts.

Officially, Islam

And in your opinion?

It matters, cuz those previous nice ages, people used to follow Islam..

The longer ago it was, the harder to know whether they were actually nice or not.

Now, non of the muslim countries follow the islamic teachings..

What would a country that followed Islamic teaching look like? Would women have equal rights to men? Could they dress as they please? Could they go where they want, when they want? Would people have the right to leave Islam if their conscience so dictated? Would gay people have equal human rights?

I guess women can work wherever they want there, and they can drive..

Better watch out if they get raped on their way to work, though, cuz then it's death by stoning for them.

Honor killings (same as in Egypt) are all not an official thing, it's a habit people used to do since ever, and is irrilevant to Islam..

And yet it's Muslims who do it, in the name of Islam, and Islamic governments that don't punish them for doing it. How about that. How do you think an honor killing would go over in Dayton, Ohio? Any idea why it's not a habit there? Think it has anything to do with the absence of an Islamic government or majority Muslim population?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Surely criticising the ideology of half a billion individuals based on the ideology of a few hundred is equally fallacious? If they are the same ideology then why don't we have half a billion suicide bombers? Surely the difference of desiring to commit acts of terror is significant enough to treat the two as distinct even if members of both groups wish to use the same word to describe them?

I agree, it would indeed be fallacious to criticize the ideology of half a billion people based on the ideology of a few hundred. But that's not an accurate characterization of the point I was making, which was:

The "actions of a few hundred" suicide bombers, as well as the alarming support for those actions among Muslims, certainly speaks to the dangers of following the ravings of an ancient, superstitious, conquest-bent fanatical tribe.

You ask: 'If they are the same ideology then why don't we have half a billion suicide bombers?' That's like asking why only 10% of people taking the same drug get the side effect of headaches. Or, you could ask why not all white supremacists engage in terrorist acts. Nevertheless, white supremacy is an ideology that is unnecessary (being baseless in fact) and dangerous (with its call for whites to dominate other races).

Similarly, adulation for the Quran and the hadith (or the Bible, etc.) has predictable effects on the behavior of that sizable proportion of people who take each word deadly seriously.

Consider, as one of many many examples, the case of the Red Mosque siege in Pakistan--little girls eager to become martyrs for God. The fact that the contents of the Quran and hadith are significantly responsible for their behavior is made clear by a simple thought experiment: imagine if everything were exactly the same, except the text which formed the basis of the school's ideology was, say, The Humanist Manifesto and its Aspirations. Or if their #1 figurehead was Ghandi instead of Muhammad. And so on.

And then there is the even larger percentage of the population who wouldn't commit those acts themselves, but who nevertheless support them. I don't recall the percentage of Muslims in Great Britain, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. who think suicide bombing is "sometimes justified", but it is not encouraging.

All this is not to say that Islam is incompatible with tolerance, equality, separation of church and state, etc. That would indeed be an ignorant view, given the existence of many tolerant, reasonable Muslims. However, if we want to teach our children about tolerance, equality, separation of church and state, love and compassion, and so on, this could be accomplished without them memorizing one single line from the Quran or the hadith. On the other hand, any text which rants and raves about the depravity of nonbelievers, and the righteousness of the struggle against them and the everlasting fire which awaits them, is bound to inspire violence and intolerance.

Just compare the divinely-inspired, unalterable, superstitious list of insults and threats leveled at nonbelievers in Sura 2 VS. the clarity and sanity of the revisable Humanist Manifesto. Is it likely that any school for humanist little girls will end up like the Red Mosque? Will humanists like me ever be overwhelmed and frustrated by the number of terrorists--none of whom are "really" humanists--who make videos of themselves quoting the Humanist Manifesto, then go blow themselves up on a crowded bus?

I am not some bigot who thinks that you should be kicked off of an airplane simply for reciting the Quran. Of course, people should be free to believe whatever they want to believe, and practice whatever they want to practice. But in our conversational discourse, we ought not shrink from criticizing lines like:

As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey’s end! (Sura 2.126)

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. (Sura 2.254)

Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk. (Sura 2.286)

...and many, many others; or, any ideology which holds lines such as these as especially instructive or illuminating, among all human literature in history.

Is suicide bombing part of the ideology of Islam? I didn't know that? Autodidact's question to me was absolutely ludicrous.

Fair enough, but see above. ^

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

So ignore everything that actual Muslims actually do, and just read the Qu'ran? O.K., although I suspect there's some relationship between Islam and Muslims, but if you say so.

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times...
2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will...
And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.
2: 282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women...
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.
4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
4:176 They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment.

Now you want to know what kind of problems I have with what the Qu'ran says about women? Or are you going to say something about the Qu'ran being above question, being the Word of God and all?

Now obviously I cannot answer all, it would take hell lot of time. But please again check surrounding context. For instance:
For verse 4:24. visit this link and then say if Quran is biased against Women.Read all the verses plz: Multilingual Quran check verses from 16-29.

 

[Autodidact]

Pakistan is an Islamic country in name. Make sure you have no doubts about that. The country is not least bit truly Islamic. Hudood laws are biased against women are created by those leading people who want to subjugate women in name of Islam. I curse them!

Fascinating. It seems that no matter what happens, no actual country manages to actually be Islamic, no matter if they are 100% Muslim, like Saudi Arabia, or if Islamic institutions hold all the power, as in Iran, somehow all the awful stuff they do isn't really Islam.

btw, MFaraz, those people who want to subjugate women in name of Islam, don't we call them "Muslims?" Isn't that the right name for those people? Why do you think Sweden doesn't have Hudood laws? How about Peru? Anything to do with Islam at all?

 

[Autodidact]

This conversation is cracking me up. It's exactly like talking to a Christian fundamentalist. When you point out that thousands of Christians went raping, pillaging and murdering across Europe and the Middle East, they say, "Oh, those weren't real Christians." Because, you see, Real Christians are filled with Christ's love and so are really, really nice. As for all those people calling themselves Christians and killing other Christians (Jews and Muslims) in the name of Christ? Fake Christians. Oh, how do you tell a Real Christian? You can't. Only God can judge. So what should I call all those people who call themselves Christians, believe on Jesus and the one true savior, and go the Church on Sunday? No answer. How did Christianity spread? Well, it was by conquests of all those fake Christians. How many real Christians are there? Hardly any. Except the speaker, of course, he's just filled to the brim with the love of Christ.

Oh, O.K. Can we talk about this fake Christianity problem? Because apparently there aren't enough real Christians to worry about. Except the ones on this board; they're the only real ones.

Can we talk about fake Islam now? Because apparently there aren't enough real Muslims to worry about.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Fascinating. It seems that no matter what happens, no actual country manages to actually be Islamic, no matter if they are 100% Muslim, like Saudi Arabia, or if Islamic institutions hold all the power, as in Iran, somehow all the awful stuff they do isn't really Islam.

btw, MFaraz, those people who want to subjugate women in name of Islam, don't we call them "Muslims?" Isn't that the right name for those people? Why do you think Sweden doesn't have Hudood laws? How about Peru? Anything to do with Islam at all?

I don't understand your problem with Islam..

Being a muslim doesn't mean I follow islam, but it means officially in my ID it's written Islam beside my religion title!

There are muslim porn stars, that doesn't mean they are TRUE muslims, but it means, official papers say they are!

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Fascinating. It seems that no matter what happens, no actual country manages to actually be Islamic, no matter if they are 100% Muslim, like Saudi Arabia, or if Islamic institutions hold all the power, as in Iran, somehow all the awful stuff they do isn't really Islam.

btw, MFaraz, those people who want to subjugate women in name of Islam, don't we call them "Muslims?" Isn't that the right name for those people? Why do you think Sweden doesn't have Hudood laws? How about Peru? Anything to do with Islam at all?

Muslim means one who submits his will to orders of Allah. Quran clearly tells that women are not to be treated badly. These people, who have formed such laws are not really muslims. One does not become a muslim by keeping a beard or by having a Islamic name like Faraz etc. . One should be a muslim in practice.
Do you want an example of the wretchedness of certain tribal regions: A woman was raped by her father ( as sickening as though it may sound) and the local " Imam" ordered that woman to be killed. It was all in the tv, and luckily that woman was saved.
In Pakistan too laws have been made just to server purposes. Therefore no complete shariah is implemented. Part of it's rules are implemented and even those are turned and twisted, and categorized under Islam.

 

[Autodidact]

Now obviously I cannot answer all, it would take hell lot of time. But please again check surrounding context. For instance:
For verse 4:24. visit this link and then say if Quran is biased against Women.Read all the verses plz: Multilingual Quran check verses from 16-29.

Check it, MFaraz, I didn't ask you to answer anything. I told you: This is what the Qu'ran says about women. Now if you want to try to mount some argument that it doesn't really mean what it says, that's your job. I'm not going to do it for you.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

This conversation is cracking me up. It's exactly like talking to a Christian fundamentalist. When you point out that thousands of Christians went raping, pillaging and murdering across Europe and the Middle East, they say, "Oh, those weren't real Christians." Because, you see, Real Christians are filled with Christ's love and so are really, really nice. As for all those people calling themselves Christians and killing other Christians (Jews and Muslims) in the name of Christ? Fake Christians. Oh, how do you tell a Real Christian? You can't. Only God can judge. So what should I call all those people who call themselves Christians, believe on Jesus and the one true savior, and go the Church on Sunday? No answer. How did Christianity spread? Well, it was by conquests of all those fake Christians. How many real Christians are there? Hardly any. Except the speaker, of course, he's just filled to the brim with the love of Christ.

Oh, O.K. Can we talk about this fake Christianity problem? Because apparently there aren't enough real Christians to worry about. Except the ones on this board; they're the only real ones.

Can we talk about fake Islam now? Because apparently there aren't enough real Muslims to worry about.

But there is a real Islam



You are a smart Atheist...Does that mean all atheists are smart??

Noway, I have debated too many stupid ones (no offense of course, I'm just showing a point, and those weren't RFers )

See?..it's the same concept!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Check it, MFaraz, I didn't ask you to answer anything. I told you: This is what the Qu'ran says about women. Now if you want to try to mount some argument that it doesn't really mean what it says, that's your job. I'm not going to do it for you.

It's our job I know...but it needs time, thats the point!

Give us time to answer!...and let women be into this too!

 

[Autodidact]

But there is a real Islam



You are a smart Atheist...Does that mean all atheists are smart??

Noway, I have debated too many stupid ones (no offense of course, I'm just showing a point, and those weren't RFers )

See?..it's the same concept!

No it's not. All atheists lack a belief in God. Anyone who lacks a belief in God is an atheist, regardless of whether they behave as ax murderers or saints, whether they are geniuses or morons. If an atheist kills a Muslim for being a Muslim (something I have never heard of happening) I don't get to argue: Oh, he wasn't a real atheist. Real atheists are logical, and would never do something irrational like that. Sorry, jerks can be atheists too.

So, what's the definition of Muslim? Islam?

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Check it, MFaraz, I didn't ask you to answer anything. I told you: This is what the Qu'ran says about women. Now if you want to try to mount some argument that it doesn't really mean what it says, that's your job. I'm not going to do it for you.

If you are passing a statement back it up with proof. You only give single verses out of context. Example, if a person writes a book and in it says that someone said 2+2=5. Now someone takes text out of context and tells other people that in the book it is written 2+2+=5. Is that fair????????
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:18] Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:19] O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:20] But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:21] And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:22] And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past: It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:23] Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:24] Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:25] If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hayat,

Which of the lines you quoted nullify the lines that Autodidact quoted? Her point was not that the texts of Islam say nothing positive about women, but simply that it those texts do say some negative things.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

No it's not. All atheists lack a belief in God. Anyone who lacks a belief in God is an atheist, regardless of whether they behave as ax murderers or saints, whether they are geniuses or morons. If an atheist kills a Muslim for being a Muslim (something I have never heard of happening) I don't get to argue: Oh, he wasn't a real atheist. Real atheists are logical, and would never do something irrational like that. Sorry, jerks can be atheists too.

So, what's the definition of Muslim? Islam?

mm, well, you are right in this..

But still, Having "muslim" title in your birth certificate doesn't mean you are a true muslim....

Thats why there is heaven and hell, for muslims too


Sorry, I gotta go now...Will continue the debate later

Salam

 

[Autodidact]

It's our job I know...but it needs time, thats the point!

Wow, here I am, one little ignorant Jewish atheist, who's never cracked a Qu'ran in her life, just 60 seconds of Google to find a whole list of what the Qur'an says about women, and all these people who have been studying it since they were knee-high to their Imam have nary a word to say. I must be one smart atheist.

Give us time to answer!...and let women be into this too!

Who's stopping them? What am I, chopped liver?

 

[Autodidact]

If you are passing a statement back it up with proof. You only give single verses out of context. Example, if a person writes a book and in it says that someone said 2+2=5. Now someone takes text out of context and tells other people that in the book it is written 2+2+=5. Is that fair????????
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:18] Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:19] O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:20] But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:21] And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:22] And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past: It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:23] Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:24] Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 4:25] If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

O.K., how does this change anything? You can't marry a woman who is already married (duh) unless you own her. Great religion you got there.

 

[Autodidact]

mm, well, you are right in this..

But still, Having "muslim" title in your birth certificate doesn't mean you are a true muslim....

Thats why there is heaven and hell, for muslims too

And yet someone in this very thread told me that for one Muslim to call another not-Muslim (kaffir) was a major wrong. Maybe you Muslims need to get a committee so you stop contradicting yourselves. Or how about this solution: How would I, an atheist lesbian Jewish woman who wears pants and goes where she pleases, be handled in a Muslim country?