What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[England my lionheart]

I thought the talk was on women rights? How did it suddenly shift? Anyways, here is my comment on slavery, a post I made in some other forum:
"I think I read something about slavery. Well, slavery though is allowed in Islam, yet a person has many responsbilities to the slave. Few important ones are:
Masters could not abuse their slaves and had to give them the same that they ate and wore.
Narated by Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names you still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.'" – [Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 2, #29]
In another narration the importance of giving slaves education and teaching them good manners is stressed by Prophet Muhammad(saw):
Narrated Abu Burda's father: Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward:
1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the Prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam).
2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master.
3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her." – [Bukhari Vol.1, Book 3, #97A]
Further in the Quran it is seen that people are encouraged to marry the slaves. If a person cannot marry a free woman for whatever reason, to prevent him from committing sin, the Quran asks them to marry from among the slave women.
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable. – [Quran 4:25]
Islam never started slavery and it is well known that slavery was practiced much before the introduction of Islam. Islam actually laid down all the rules so that eventually slavery would be eliminated completely. There are many great rewards for freeing a slave. Allah(swt) has given man all the incentive to free slaves which would in return eventually eradicate slavery completely. Another narration goes as follows:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever frees a Muslim slave, Allah will save all the parts of his body from the (Hell) Fire as he has freed the body-parts of the slave." Said bin Marjana said that he narrated that Hadith to 'Ali bin Al-Husain and he freed his slave for whom 'Abdullah bin Ja'far had offered him ten thousand Dirhams or one-thousand Dinars. – [Bukhari, Vol.3, Book 46, #693]"

Unreal ,so as long as you feed and cloth a slave its ok,slave ?, now am i wrong or is slavery a horrible evil thing to impose on a human being.

 

[Autodidact]

In previous 2 posts, I tried to explain that there is a difference between takfeer a Muslim and say Muslims ignored this and that teaching. Now there are Muslims who kill, steal, rape, gamble, drink alcohol, beat women, mistreat their parents, their chlidren, now can I say those are not Muslims? No. Can I say this Muslim who raped disobeyed Allah's order? Yes. Can I say the one who killed, disobeyed Allah's order? Yes......is this too hard to understand? A Muslim doesn't mean a perfect human being who doesn't make mistakes, all of us make mistakes and the best of us who fix these mistakes but not every Muslim make a mistake and ignore a teaching of Islam is a kafir and not every Muslim who commit a crime is kafir but he/she will take the kind of penalty he/she deserves.
All over the world there are Muslims who try their best to adhere to the Islamic teachings and there are other Muslims who don't even care but I'll still call them Muslims.
There are a real problem in Saudi Arabia regarding the issue of freedom in general and some issues regarding women and I don't imagine myself in a country where I can't drive a car for instance but I hoping such problems will be fixed soon. I don't know what's the problem of Iranian women? What about Afghani women after the American conquest? In Pakistan, men and women need to be saved from the hard time that Pakistan lives now.
Just for your info, there are other "Muslim" countries other than the ones you mentioned but unfortunately I can't call any of them "Islamic".

I live in Cairo, Egypt.

The distinction I am drawing is between just doing bad stuff and doing it in the name of Islam. Muslims steal, lie, etc. just like anyone. But the stuff I'm talking about is done by Islamic governments to further Islam. They are doing their best to adhere to Islamic teachings, and to create a government that does the same. And what is the result? Oppression of women, no religious freedom, death penalty for apostates, oppression of gay people, women being murdered by good Muslim fathers and brothers to adhere to Islamic teachings. Why don't their Islamic governments punish them?

It's not just driving, 4, these women cannot go out their front door without their male relative's permission. Aren't you glad you live in a secular, not Islamic, state? What if the Islamists prevail in Egypt? That could be you, a prisoner in your own home, in full hijab and carrying a note from your husband every time you walk out your front door.

Iranian women? Very oppressive. If the police catch them with hair peeking out: caning for them.

Egypt: Do you have the same right to divorce as your husband? Here's a link about women's rights in the Mid-East. It's pretty depressing. Instead of just hoping, as a Muslim women, what can you do to help? Would it be safe for you to advocate for change?

 

[Autodidact]

The burka is not Islamic las--it is a custom older than the Qur'an.

Oh, do Christians wear the burka? What do you call those women who wear it? What religion are 100% of them?

 

[Autodidact]

Unreal ,so as long as you feed and cloth a slave its ok,slave ?, now am i wrong or is slavery a horrible evil thing to impose on a human being.

If you're Jewish or Christian, I wouldn't get too excited. The Bible explictly permits it.

 

[Autodidact]

Y'know, never having even looked at the Qu'ran before, what strikes me the most is that it apparently is written for men only. I mean it seems to be directed at men, and women only come into in relation to the man who is reading it. Were women not expected to be able to read, or are they just second-class citizens, or what?

 

[England my lionheart]

Y'know, never having even looked at the Qu'ran before, what strikes me the most is that it apparently is written for men only. I mean it seems to be directed at men, and women only come into in relation to the man who is reading it. Were women not expected to be able to read, or are they just second-class citizens, or what?

Exactly,its for men only as it was written by a man(sorry he could'nt write)by some witnesses and guess what,they were men aswell.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

In fact, I think this is a good general principle. If you're in favor of modesty, wear a hijab. If you think men and women should be kept apart, then stay home, so women can go about freely. And if you approve of slavery, then you should be a slave. I think this principle will lead to great peace and equality. I think it's called the Golden Rule. Does Islam have it?

Salvary thing is just a deep sign of the wisdom of Islam, but as usuall, people just braket what they wanna see..

BTW, there is no salvary now for sure!

How about the attempted invasion of Europe (battle of Poitiers 732 AD)was this peace or Spain and Portugal.

Well, historically, the best ages for Spain was the islamic era!

Unreal ,so as long as you feed and cloth a slave its ok,slave ?, now am i wrong or is slavery a horrible evil thing to impose on a human being.

Yeah it's horrible..no doubt

It's not just driving, 4, these women cannot go out their front door without their male relative's permission. Aren't you glad you live in a secular, not Islamic, state? What if the Islamists prevail in Egypt? That could be you, a prisoner in your own home, in full hijab and carrying a note from your husband every time you walk out your front door.

That isn't true...women are not prisoners at home....they go out normally whenever they want!

Egypt: Do you have the same right to divorce as your husband? Here's a link about women's rights in the Mid-East. It's pretty depressing. Instead of just hoping, as a Muslim women, what can you do to help? Would it be safe for you to advocate for change?

This could be true...But what do you mean by "change"?
All these are not caused due to Islam...it's just ignorance and misguidance..

Oh, do Christians wear the burka? What do you call those women who wear it? What religion are 100% of them?

Didn't u go to a church before?...burka has been a sign of modesty for a long time

Y'know, never having even looked at the Qu'ran before, what strikes me the most is that it apparently is written for men only. I mean it seems to be directed at men, and women only come into in relation to the man who is reading it. Were women not expected to be able to read, or are they just second-class citizens, or what?

In English, "YOU" can imply both masculin or feminine accents, while in Arabic it differs...But that doesn't mean it talks to men!!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Exactly,its for men only as it was written by a man(sorry he could'nt write)by some witnesses and guess what,they were men as well.

Well, a book as accurate as the Quran would never give you a chance to claim such a silly thing!!

You say that Islam opressed women and treated them as second class citizens, while I say that Islam is the only religion that respected the uniquness of women, and took in consideration the differences between men and women..

(And yeah, I said "men" and "women"....that gotta mean I'm opressing women to mention them after men!!)

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Y'know, never having even looked at the Qu'ran before, what strikes me the most is that it apparently is written for men only. I mean it seems to be directed at men, and women only come into in relation to the man who is reading it. Were women not expected to be able to read, or are they just second-class citizens, or what?

That is a matter of semantics only. Arabic as other semetic languages are masculine. Even spanish which is not considered a semetic language is masculine and many other languages besides. In Quran you'll have a word like nas. Nas in usual translation is men, but the more relative translation is mankind. When we say mankind in english it is understood to mean every human being, not every male. Similarly in arabic the word nas = mankind not men as opposed to women. This is not an issue of gender equality unless you are willing to say that all languages that have masculine feminine forms are to be reconstructed as to not have gender based forms of words. The Quran is in masculine form because it was revealed to a male. If I were addressing a crowd of arab women with only one male present I would present my speech in the masculine form as per the rules of grammer. I believe it is like this even with spanish you would address a group of females in masculine form even if there was one male present. Somebody can correct that if I'm wrong. I don't understand how the grammer-rules of a language are sexist in their application. That's like saying in english the words "his" and "hers" are sexist because it marks a difference between genders.

 

[Autodidact]

Salvary thing is just a deep sign of the wisdom of Islam, but as usuall, people just braket what they wanna see..

You call it wisdom. I call it barbaric. So does the rest of the civilized world.

BTW, there is no salvary now for sure!

Wrong. There's slavery right now in Sudan. Muslims enslave non-Muslim Africans. Right now.

That isn't true...women are not prisoners at home....they go out normally whenever they want!

U.S. State Department:

Women considering relocating to Saudi Arabia should be keenly aware that women and children residing in Saudi Arabia as members of a Saudi household (including adult American-citizen women married to Saudi men, adult American-citizen women who are the unmarried daughters of Saudi fathers, and American-citizen boys under the age of 21 who are the sons of Saudi fathers) are considered household property and require the permission of the Saudi male head of their household to leave the country.

Wiki:

Women cannot be admitted to a hospital, examined by a doctor, travel abroad or leave the house without the express permission and/or company of an immediate male relative. After their first menstrual cycle, women must cover their entire body in a long black cloak (abaaya) as according to tradition. Failing to do so results in severe punishment.

Get it? They are prisoners in their own homes, and cannot leave without the permission of a male relative. How would you like to live like that?

This could be true...But what do you mean by "change"?

The changes that Not4 was hoping for.

All these are not caused due to Islam...it's just ignorance and misguidance..

It's just a coincidence then, that this only happens in Muslim countries with Muslim governments? That Muslim clerics and rulers impose it in the name of Islam? Maybe ignorance and misguidance and Islam go hand in hand.

Didn't u go to a church before?

No, I have never been Christian. What's your point?...

burka has been a sign of modesty for a long time

So? I think you should wear one. Similarly, I think I should choose what I wear, like adult human beings world wide.

In English, "YOU" can imply both masculin or feminine accents, while in Arabic it differs...But that doesn't mean it talks to men!!

Really? Have you read it? The bits I looked at all read like this:

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you.

To me it seems to be talking to men, and telling them to leave women alone. Like this:

64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them. And if ye efface and overlook and forgive, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It seems to be addressed only to men. Unless you're saying that women have wives? Maybe you never noticed because you're a man.

 

[Sahar]

The distinction I am drawing is between just doing bad stuff and doing it in the name of Islam. Muslims steal, lie, etc. just like anyone.

Listen, Autodidact, I told you I live in Egypt, I am sure you heard about the terrorist bombing in Sharm el Shiek 2005. There were many Egyptians who were injured and killed i.e. Muslims), the one who did these explosions claimed he did this in the name of Islam for example. Any one can say any thing he wants, I can say I kill in the name of Islam, I rape in the name of Islam, I steal in the name of Islam.....but the questions is, should we believe any deviant criminal say he committed this act (a crime i mean) in the name of Islam? I don't really understand!! I gave you the example of sharm el sheikh to say those who commit those crimes kill their brothers and sisters in the religion. I can bring the verses that prohibit killing people in general and killing the believers specifically (but I don't have the time now ). Such person who made those explosions disobeyed a clear cut order from God, after this how come I say what he did represent Islam?!!
As I said any person can say whatever he wants, this something is up to him actually.

But the stuff I'm talking about is done by Islamic governments to further Islam.

Freedom, human rights, women issues are the same in many middle eastern countries regardless of claiming being secular or Islamic governments. Many of Middle Eastern countries suffer from dictator rulers, restrictions on freedom of speech and restriction on having a democratic environment...etc. and thus I can't deny that there are problems in the Middle East and the Muslim world and as I said before there are some Muslim countries that are still occupied....Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine...and Al Golan.....in other words the Middle East and Muslims need some kind of revolution to solve all these problems.

Let me talk about Muslims and Islam. Many if not most of Muslim countries especially after the deterioration and fall of ottoman empire became European colonies. The secular ideas began to penetrate our societies, the colonization is gone now, but what remained now is that the institutions of our countries became influenced by the western ideas, Islam in people's life became only some set of rituals like prayers, fasting, hajj...etc even Zakah, not many Muslims pay it. In many Muslims countries you can't form a political party that is Islamic. I am Muslim and I know from the deepest of my heart that Islam is not just some prayers or rituals but it's a system of life i.e. Islam told how I dress, eat, walk, talk, treat my parents, neighbours, the poor, the orphan, the non-Muslim, my colleagues in work, my husband and the Islamic teachings on everything in my life is the Islamic Shari'ah.
Thus when some Muslims say we are away from the teachings of our religion, they were telling the truth. As Islam became away from the different fields of our lives in our societies and that's why you should not be surprised.
In Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood and many who called for forming Islamic government were tortured and murdered in jails under the secular government during Abdel Naser for example.

Aren't you glad you live in a secular, not Islamic, state?

No I am not happy. You called it secular state and I'll agree but what this state did to me? Look at Egypt file for example regarding human rights, freedoms and even issues concerning women. Now as an Egyptian I see corruption everywhere, deterioration of educational, scientific research and health systems. As I told you as a Muslim I believe Islam is not only in my house or mosque but in every field in my community; political, economical, social, legal, cultural, educational fields. I am mad that we can't form Islamic political parties in a country that the majority of its inhabitants are Muslims. Why can't I see a political party in my country that represent me and a huge section of my people? We have seen how the secular government is like and I am sick of it. I wish Islamists to reach the government but I don't want a government of God, I want an Islamic government that establish justice, equality and freedom, whose values are the values of Islam.
I'll tell you something, the second article of the Egyptian constitution says that the second source of legislation is Islamic Shari'ah.

 

[Sahar]

It's not just driving, 4, these women cannot go out their front door without their male relative's permission.

I think this is exaggeration but to be honest I don't know how things are going on exactly there so my brothers who know KSA more than me can help.

What if the Islamists prevail in Egypt? That could be you, a prisoner in your own home, in full hijab and carrying a note from your husband every time you walk out your front door.

I never understood this from my religion and I don't want any one to treat me like this but I have seen what many Islamists call for and I am completely with them.

Iranian women? Very oppressive. If the police catch them with hair peeking out: caning for them.

The only thing that I know and that can be called oppressive (to Iranian women) is forcing them to cover their hair and I see this no different from forcing Muslim women in France to take off their head scarves in the schools and universities. I can say the case of Iran is much better than some other countries in the ME.

Egypt: Do you have the same right to divorce as your husband? Here's a link about women's rights in the Mid-East. It's pretty depressing. Instead of just hoping, as a Muslim women, what can you do to help? Would it be safe for you to advocate for change?

What I know is the Personal Status Law in Egypt is very unjust to women. There is something called "khol' (divorce initiated by the wife) and it's derived from Islamic Shari'ah. Yes, any one now can advocate for any thing but the point is a real change has to take place not just words.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

You call it wisdom. I call it barbaric. So does the rest of the civilized world.

Salvary is barbaric indeed....But Islamic treatment of the issue is wisdom..

And it needs a whole thread to discuss...if you want I can send you a post for that issue..

Wrong. There's slavery right now in Sudan. Muslims enslave non-Muslim Africans. Right now.

Those aren't legal salvary (according to Islam)..and we totally oppose that..

Women considering relocating to Saudi Arabia should be keenly aware that women and children residing in Saudi Arabia as members of a Saudi household (including adult American-citizen women married to Saudi men, adult American-citizen women who are the unmarried daughters of Saudi fathers, and American-citizen boys under the age of 21 who are the sons of Saudi fathers) are considered household property and require the permission of the Saudi male head of their household to leave the country.

I have been living there for like my whole life...
yeah, in KSA they do many wrong stuff..so?
Said a million time, it's not an islamic act!

Women cannot be admitted to a hospital, examined by a doctor, travel abroad or leave the house without the express permission and/or company of an immediate male relative. After their first menstrual cycle, women must cover their entire body in a long black cloak (abaaya) as according to tradition. Failing to do so results in severe punishment.

mmm...I doubt that!

All mom's friends are in the streets the whole day!...and no one prevents them from so.

The changes that Not4 was hoping for.

The changes not4me was hoping for were changing the rules to islamic ones!
And to let the governments act more islamic, not more mutated!

Our countries are niether islamic nor any other thing!...they are just a freaky system in between!

It's just a coincidence then, that this only happens in Muslim countries with Muslim governments? That Muslim clerics and rulers impose it in the name of Islam? Maybe ignorance and misguidance and Islam go hand in hand.

Whatever you wanna call it!

No, I have never been Christian. What's your point?...

I ment that sisters in churches also wear a barqa like cloth..
It's just a sign for modesty, and not a freaky invention

So? I think you should wear one. Similarly, I think I should choose what I wear, like adult human beings world wide.

Yeah, wear whatever you want as long as it's modest!

It seems to be addressed only to men. Unless you're saying that women have wives? Maybe you never noticed because you're a man.

And if the Quran adressed women, men would have said the exact same thing!

 

[agent_smith]

Giving basic human rights to women might be a good place to start.

 

[Autodidact]

Wow, it's like backwards language with you people. Everything evil done by Muslims in the name of Islam because of Islam is "not real Islam." Question: Why do you think it is only Muslim countries that have these laws? Why do you think the more influence the Muslim clergy have, the more restrictive the laws, especially as regards women's rights? Why were Middle Eastern, Islamic countries, the last countries on earth to give women the right to vote? Do you think just maybe it has something to do with ISLAM?

 

[Sahar]

Honestly I won't deny that I spent much time trying to explain and convey my point of view kindly but it seems it was a real huge waste of my time to participate in an argument with some people who are not willing to listen at all.

Really salam

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Wow, it's like backwards language with you people. Everything evil done by Muslims in the name of Islam because of Islam is "not real Islam." Question: Why do you think it is only Muslim countries that have these laws? Why do you think the more influence the Muslim clergy have, the more restrictive the laws, especially as regards women's rights? Why were Middle Eastern, Islamic countries, the last countries on earth to give women the right to vote? Do you think just maybe it has something to do with ISLAM?

No it doesn't!!

You don't know the nature of the middle eastern culture...Our culture influences our rules more than our religion...

You may think it's islam, but guess what, it's just our stupid culture that we keep hanging on..

I do understand why you say those things....it's because what you SEE is what you judge..

And BTW, all the humanity is suffering from horrible mental and sociological problems, and you can't attack us and hope to be like the west, cuz simply, we both suck!...

Gotta go now...bye!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

and you can't attack us and hope to be like the west, cuz simply, we both suck!..

At least we know we suck, and we know where the truth is..

But you just keep judging us, and totally ignoring your rules and governments!

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

To me it seems to be talking to men, and telling them to leave women alone. Like this:

Quote:
64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them. And if ye efface and overlook and forgive, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It seems to be addressed only to men. Unless you're saying that women have wives? Maybe you never noticed because you're a man.

So? Some verses address men specifically and some verses address women specifically. Your point? Is it sexist to address one gender or the other? The book in general addresses all so ....I don't understand your argument?

 

[YmirGF]

It matters, cuz those previous nice ages, people used to follow Islam..

That begs the VERY simple question notEiNsteiN and the question is this. IF indeed Muslim's in general no longer practice Islam as it was "brought down" then why on Earth would any thinking person listen to Muslim's extolling the virtues of Islam? If you are correct, and I believe you are, then why would anyone in their right mind "revert" to Islam, a religion that is no longer practised as it should be practiced?