What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Popeyesays]

Thanks Scott for the info.

BTW, capturing Mekka is considered one of the least violant wars ever in history (no single victim!)

And the emigration of the prophet and his companions is also considerd one of the most peacful ones in history..
No lossed from those who emigrated, and the country they emigrated to totally wellcomed them..

One should not forget that the Meccans attacked Medina ruthlessly between the time Muhammed arrived and Mecca fell. There were a number of bloody battles, but Muhammed was only interested in defending Medina, it was not until all Mecca's allies fell away and the city found itself without assistance that Muhammed advanced and entered the city.

Regards,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

One should not forget that the Meccans attacked Medina ruthlessly between the time Muhammed arrived and Mecca fell. There were a number of bloody battles, but Muhammed was only interested in defending Medina, it was not until all Mecca's allies fell away and the city found itself without assistance that Muhammed advanced and entered the city.

That concept is well known as both "biding one's time" and "striking when the moment is right". The illustious "Prophet" was certainly a good tactician, of that there is little doubt. I am reminded of scenes from The Godfather where people were brought before the godfather for quiet "peaceful" chats, in full knowledge that they MUST obey his instructions or perish.

 

[vandervalley]

Well, I appreciate your post alot..

In my religion, I'm ordered to respect everyone, and to deal with ANYone peacfully disregarding his/her believes..

I will tell ya a story from the Seera (the life story of the prophet).
The prophet had a jewish neighbor, who used to throw rubbish and dirt infront of the prophet's house, as a sign for hatered..
Every day, the man threw those dirt, the prophet just removed them...Until a day came when the prophet didn't see any rabbish outside his door..

He asked the neigborhood about the jewish man, and they told him he was sick...
The prophet simply went to his house to check him out!

Another story, when the prophet captured Mekka, he just forgave every person there...
These people killed many muslims before, enslaved many others, and hurted the prophet alot in the past...and he just forgave them!

Through out the Islamic history, jews and christians as well as other minorities used to live peacfuly side by side with muslims...
I do have many christian and atheist friends here in Egypt, and sometimes they are very close to me..My religion never opposed that!..


That's it!

Very good!! So what if people wish to practice Dharmic religions say in Egypt?
What will happen then?

 

[Sahar]

not4me,
Thank you for responding to my post. I do not understand what your questions have to do with the point I made in my post, but I will answer them. I don't honestly know the answers to your questions, but here are my best guesses:

- Non Muslims commit acts of violence in the name of ideologies different from Islam, or for other reasons.
- Muslims who kill other Muslims ignore or rationalize the parts of the Quran/hadith which do not support their actions, and focus on those parts of the Quran/hadith which do support their actions
- Don't ask me, ask groups like Al-Quaida and Hamas, which use Islam as support for programs of both suicide and murder:

Found on Hamas Charter
They don't seem to have any problem justifying their violence with Islam.

And here's a very important point: Even if you disagree with the way Hamas interprets Islam, and even if you can present different quotations to deconstruct their arguments; the mere fact that such interpretations are not uncommon shows that Islam's holy books are not the best and clearest guides to peace and love. If they were truly the best guides for peace and love, these interpretations should be impossible, and extremely rare; yet Muslims support suicide bombings and civilian targeting more than other religious groups, and many terrorist organizations quote Islam's holy books for support. Bottom line: sure, Muslims like you are peaceful and loving, but that is in spite of the fact that you believe the Creator of the Universe thinks "disbelievers" like me are "wrongdoers" and will be compelled "to the doom of Fire".

Islam's holy books could be improved. Lines like the ones Hamas quoted should be deleted; lines like "murdering non-combatants is always wrong" and "treat everyone equally, whether they are a believer or disbeliever" and "Allah loves everyone, even disbelievers" could be added; children should be taught that these are the words of humans, not God, and as such they sometimes get it wrong. But this sort of reform is prohibited by Islam, and that's the problem.

I sympathize with anyone who is killed or kicked out of their home, whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Does Surah 2 say that? No. Instead, Surah 2 paints a picture of the world that essentially dehumanizes disbelievers, characterizes them as cruel and stupid, rejoices in subjugating them and rejoices in the idea that they will burn forever in hell.

Imagine if I believed that God said:

"The Muslims, they are the wrong-doers. They will be cast into the Fire! Struggle against the Muslims, and may God give us victory over them."
​

What would you think? Would teaching this to children be helpful for peace in the world?

I'm not saying it promotes violence, but it enables violence. Many of your fellow Muslims seem to agree with me. Go tell THEM that it doesn't promote violence. If I were you, I would be far more outraged at them for using Islam in this way, and not outraged at me for merely pointing this out.

No, not in their entirety. But I don't need to know anything about those texts in order to know that: if we want to teach our children about tolerance, equality, separation of church and state, love and compassion, and so on, this could be accomplished without them memorizing one single line from the Quran or the hadith. This is manifestly true because there are many books (both fiction and nonfiction) from which we can learn these things. Have you read/studied the works of Plato, Martin Luther King, Buddha, Confucius, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Thomas Paine, Descartes....?

Even if parts of the Qur'an and hadith inspire tolerance, while others inspire intolerance, that is still a problem. It should ALL inspire tolerance.

Now, perhaps you would answer my these points which I made:

Consider, as one of many many examples, the case of the Red Mosque siege in Pakistan--little girls eager to become martyrs for God. The fact that the contents of the Quran and hadith are significantly responsible for their behavior is made clear by a simple thought experiment: imagine if everything were exactly the same, except the text which formed the basis of the school's ideology was, say, The Humanist Manifesto and its Aspirations. Or if their #1 figurehead was Ghandi instead of Muhammad. And so on.

....

Just compare the divinely-inspired, unalterable, superstitious list of insults and threats leveled at nonbelievers in Sura 2 VS. the clarity and sanity of the revisable Humanist Manifesto. Is it likely that any school for humanist little girls will end up like the Red Mosque? Will humanists like me ever be overwhelmed and frustrated by the number of terrorists--none of whom are "really" humanists--who make videos of themselves quoting the Humanist Manifesto, then go blow themselves up on a crowded bus?
​

I won't touch on the topic of Hamas at all in this thread because if I did, I would talk much about the Zionist terrorism and I don't want this thread to turn into another argument about the Zionist-Arab conflict. I won't go into what Hamas does or does not except in the context of the current conflict/war in Occupied Palestine. If you want to start a new thread, it's up to you.
But one thing should be clear, I do support any legitimate resistance that fight against occupation and tyranny and strive for liberty and independence.

The other thing, when we talk about the Noble Qur'an, there is no place for playing or for desire. Not any one dislikes something in the Holy Qur'an, we will change it for the sake of his eyes. Qur'an is not subjected to desires and if it was, the Qur'an in our hands now wouldn't be the same one form 1400 years or maybe it would vanish "Maan, this line is bad, delete! Eh, I tell you what, lets delete the entire Surah.......Oh Là Là, there is another bad line, deleeeeeeeeeeeete! No...no... listen to this brilliant idea, lets delete the whole Qur'an!!!!!!"
There is not a single person can change a word from the Qur'an; "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" Holy Qur'an.
Some enemies of Islam tried many times before to do this, but all of their attempts failed, Alhamdulillah.
Muslims believe the Qur'an is the word of God and the truth and it would be very naive to suggest changing anything in it.

My following post is full of Qur'anic verses and sayings of the prophets, I wish if you read them carefully as they represent my reply, from the Ideology of Islam itself, to your claims.

 

[Sahar]

Even if parts of the Qur'an and hadith inspire tolerance, while others inspire intolerance

I agree. Islam calls for tolerance but Islam doesn't define tolerance as lack of principles; Allah loves the believers and disbelievers, all the roads and religions are the same....we are cool.....every thing is cool, there is no right and there is no wrong, we are all going to Paradise.......etc of such naive talk.
The Qur'an never called for imposing the Islamic belief on people, on the contrary, Islam acknowledged people's freedom to choose the way of Islam or any other way.
Tolerance, freedom, equality, justice and compassion, all are fundamental rules of Islam.

Freedom of belief is ensured in Islam. Islam considered belief and disbelief as a personal freedom, this issue and who's being wrong and who's being right a matter will be determined by God on the day of Judgment:
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with you on the matter, but do invite (them) to your Lord: for you are assuredly on the Right Way. If they do wrangle with you, say, 'God knows best what it is you are doing.' 'God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." (Holy Qur'an, Al Hajj)
Thus the above Ayah states it's not the Muslim's right or job t to judge the disbelievers; and in this wordly life how is the Muslim supposed to treat the disbelievers?
Answer: "Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…) (Qur'an, Al-Mumtahinah)

Not only who are in peace with us we should treat them justly but also:
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, for this is closest to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. ) (Qur'an, Al-Ma’ida)

How should Muslims convey the message of Islam?
(Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. Your Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance) (Qur'an, An-Nahl).

Look at how the Qur'an teaches the prophet and the believers to address the disbelievers: "To you be your Way, and to me mine" (Holy Qur'an, Disbelievers)

To force any ideology or belief including Islam/the Islamic thinking on any one is forbidden:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." Surah 2 (that bothers you so much :cover.

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject (it)" Al Kahf." (Qur'an, Al kahf)

(If then they turn away, We have not sent you as a guard over them. Your duty is but to convey (the Message)&#8230(Qur'an, Ash-Shura)

Islam emphasizes dignity of the human being:
"Verily We have honored the children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment." (Al-Isra': 70)

Islam emphasizes the sanctity of human life:
[Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.] (Al-Ma’idah 5:32)

Equality of all human beings:
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).(Al Hujrat: 13)

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said from 1400 years: "No Arab has any superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over a black man, or the black man any superiority over the white man. You are all the children of Adam, and Adam was created from clay."

“All people are as equal as the teeth of a comb" said the prophet pbuh.

The Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, was asked: "Who among men is most favoured by God?' He replied : "A man who does the most good to people."

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said “A (true) believer is one from whom people feel secure in their souls and properties (from any offensive on his part)”.

The Islamic war ethics are another story but no harm to quote Abu-Bakr's instructions to Osama's Campaign on Syria: “Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”

Let alone the Islamic teachings about the poor, orphan, the weak, social justice......etc.

But Islam has NO tolerance towards oppression, injustice, aggression:
(And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Yourside one who will protect; and raise for us from Yourside one who will help!') (An-Nisaa' 4:75)

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors) (Al-Baqarah Surah 2 again the Surah that bothers you.)

ِAnd when they refrain from their aggression:
"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allāh. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." Al-Anfal.

if we want to teach our children about tolerance, equality, separation of church and state, love and compassion, and so on, this could be accomplished without them memorizing one single line from the Quran or the hadith.

After all this how's your humanist manifesto, habibi? And just lets not forget that all of the above is from 1400 years ago. Indeed, I have a great religion and I am proud to be one of many of its followers. Thank God for the gift of Islam...alhamdulillah...

A Muslim is not a slave to any human and man-made laws are subjected to desires. Before you talk about what Muslims do and do not, look at your country and your "democratic government" first, the government that spreads oppression and terrorism all over the world. What all the Muslims did compared to what America and the Zionist entity did and are doing?!!

It doesn't appear to me that you practice what you preach when you want me to change my ideology and impose yours on me, what do you call this? "Lets delete"???!! :areyoucra Tolerance, hah?
I would never bow to any one's standards or give up my standards to please any one, my standards are what Allah ordained for me (and anything doesn't contradict God's laws is most welcomed), if you can't accept this, it's your problem.

If any one believes that I am going to Hell and I am a wrong doer, I don't have any problem with this.

About the violence of some Muslims; I discussed this thing with my brothers and sisters before, you can find it here: Reasons Behind Violent Extremism
Any person can claim whatever he wants, I am not responsible for anyone's talk or actions, and absolutely Islam is innocent from anyone who commits a crime in its name.

Ah the last thing, ISA, I'll teach my children about tolerance, compassion, justice, love and equality by teaching them the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

 

[EiNsTeiN]

That concept is well known as both "biding one's time" and "striking when the moment is right". The illustious "Prophet" was certainly a good tactician, of that there is little doubt. I am reminded of scenes from The Godfather where people were brought before the godfather for quiet "peaceful" chats, in full knowledge that they MUST obey his instructions or perish.

Instead of starting a new debate here, why don't you just stop ignoring my last post, and continue the debate (sorry, the dialogue I mean) we had?
I won't be surprized then to find you in another thread just repeating the same posts again, and then I will have to just reply again and again, without reaching a result, cuz we never reach the end!

Very good!! So what if people wish to practice Dharmic religions say in Egypt?
What will happen then?

It depends on what "practice" they wanna do..
Officially in Egypt, there are three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam..
Those three are the only one allowed to practise their rituals in puplic places (mosques, churches, temples)...
If some one wants to practise another religion, it should include privacy in its rituals..

Well, but this is the case in Egypt. However in an Ideal Islamic country, I think they are free to practise whatever they want as long as they are paying the Dyaa, which is usually a small amount of money paid from non muslims. And those who can't afford it don't simply pay it..

 

[kai]

As I told brother MFaraz_Hayat, I think it's irrelevant..
since it seems that Tahara is a physical issue, and not a spirtual one..According to this,a kafer (or non believer) may not be najis all the time, he can be taher too..
Not sure though

oh its very relevant, very relevant indeed!
To the list of impure things enumerated by al-Nawawi, Shi’a jurists traditionally add dead bodies and kafirs.

There are discrepancies among Shi’a jurists that who is recognized as Kafir. Some of them recognize all of the non-Muslims as Kafir, but the others separate People of the Book(Christians and Jews).



sourcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najis

 

[EiNsTeiN]

oh its very relevant, very relevant indeed!
To the list of impure things enumerated by al-Nawawi, Shi’a jurists traditionally add dead bodies and kafirs.

There are discrepancies among Shi’a jurists that who is recognized as Kafir. Some of them recognize all of the non-Muslims as Kafir, but the others separate People of the Book(Christians and Jews).



sourcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najis

Ok, then they are not taher all the time..
Thats why I said, I'm not sure!

 

[Peace]

I agree. Islam calls for tolerance but Islam doesn't define tolerance as lack of principles; Allah loves the believers and disbelievers, all the roads and religions are the same....we are cool.....every thing is cool, there is no right and there is no wrong, we are all going to Paradise.......etc of such naive talk.
The Qur'an never called for imposing the Islamic belief on people, on the contrary, Islam acknowledged people's freedom to choose the way of Islam or any other way.
Tolerance, freedom, equality, justice and compassion, all are fundamental rules of Islam.

Freedom of belief is ensured in Islam. Islam considered belief and disbelief as a personal freedom, this issue and who's being wrong and who's being right a matter will be determined by God on the day of Judgment:
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with you on the matter, but do invite (them) to your Lord: for you are assuredly on the Right Way. If they do wrangle with you, say, 'God knows best what it is you are doing.' 'God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." (Holy Qur'an, Al Hajj)
Thus the above Ayah states it's not the Muslim's right or job t to judge the disbelievers; and in this wordly life how is the Muslim supposed to treat the disbelievers?
Answer: "Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…) (Qur'an, Al-Mumtahinah)

Not only who are in peace with us we should treat them justly but also:
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, for this is closest to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. ) (Qur'an, Al-Ma’ida)

How should Muslims convey the message of Islam?
(Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. Your Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance) (Qur'an, An-Nahl).

Look at how the Qur'an teaches the prophet and the believers to address the disbelievers: "To you be your Way, and to me mine" (Holy Qur'an, Disbelievers)

To force any ideology or belief including Islam/the Islamic thinking on any one is forbidden:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." Surah 2 (that bothers you so much :cover.

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject (it)" Al Kahf." (Qur'an, Al kahf)

(If then they turn away, We have not sent you as a guard over them. Your duty is but to convey (the Message)&#8230(Qur'an, Ash-Shura)

Islam emphasizes dignity of the human being:
"Verily We have honored the children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment." (Al-Isra': 70)

Islam emphasizes the sanctity of human life:
[Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.] (Al-Ma’idah 5:32)

Equality of all human beings:
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).(Al Hujrat: 13)

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said from 1400 years: "No Arab has any superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over a black man, or the black man any superiority over the white man. You are all the children of Adam, and Adam was created from clay."

“All people are as equal as the teeth of a comb" said the prophet pbuh.

The Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, was asked: "Who among men is most favoured by God?' He replied : "A man who does the most good to people."

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said “A (true) believer is one from whom people feel secure in their souls and properties (from any offensive on his part)”.

The Islamic war ethics are another story but no harm to quote Abu-Bakr's instructions to Osama's Campaign on Syria: “Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”

Let alone the Islamic teachings about the poor, orphan, the weak, social justice......etc.

But Islam has NO tolerance towards oppression, injustice, aggression:
(And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Yourside one who will protect; and raise for us from Yourside one who will help!') (An-Nisaa' 4:75)

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors) (Al-Baqarah Surah 2 again the Surah that bothers you.)

ِAnd when they refrain from their aggression:
"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allāh. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." Al-Anfal.



After all this how's your humanist manifesto, habibi? And just lets not forget that all of the above is from 1400 years ago. Indeed, I have a great religion and I am proud to be one of many of its followers. Thank God for the gift of Islam...alhamdulillah...

A Muslim is not a slave to any human and man-made laws are subjected to desires. Before you talk about what Muslims do and do not, look at your country and your "democratic government" first, the government that spreads oppression and terrorism all over the world. What all the Muslims did compared to what America and the Zionist entity did and are doing?!!

It doesn't appear to me that you practice what you preach when you want me to change my ideology and impose yours on me, what do you call this? "Lets delete"???!! :areyoucra Tolerance, hah?
I would never bow to any one's standards or give up my standards to please any one, my standards are what Allah ordained for me (and anything doesn't contradict God's laws is most welcomed), if you can't accept this, it's your problem.

If any one believes that I am going to Hell and I am a wrong doer, I don't have any problem with this.

About the violence of some Muslims; I discussed this thing with my brothers and sisters before, you can find it here: Reasons Behind Violent Extremism
Any person can claim whatever he wants, I am not responsible for anyone's talk or actions, and absolutely Islam is innocent from anyone who commits a crime in its name.

Ah the last thing, ISA, I'll teach my children about tolerance, compassion, justice, love and equality by teaching them the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

:clap Masha'Allah! May Allah bless the hands who typed this great post!
Well said and I can't say it better dear sister!
I'll frubal you once I can

Salam,
Peace

 

[kai]

Ok, then they are not taher all the time..
Thats why I said, I'm not sure!

well thats one thing thats wrong with islam then, its not plain who is kafir and impure by just not being a muslim

 

[Peace]

I would never bow to any one's standards or give up my standards to please any one, my standards are what Allah ordained for me (and anything doesn't contradict God's laws is most welcomed), if you can't accept this, it's your problem.

:yes: Absolutely!

Indeed, I have a great religion and I am proud to be one of many of its followers. Thank God for the gift of Islam...alhamdulillah...

Thanks to Allah for the gift of Islam and that's alone is a great gift indeed alhamdulillah!

Ah the last thing, ISA, I'll teach my children about tolerance, compassion, justice, love and equality by teaching them the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

I'll do the same insha'Allah (God Willing)!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

well thats one thing thats wrong with islam then, its not plain who is kafir and impure by just not being a muslim

Christianity treats everyone to be sinful unless baptised (as I just understood from another thread)..Which is equivilant to being not pure..

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I agree. Islam calls for tolerance but Islam doesn't define tolerance as lack of principles ... The Qur'an never called for imposing the Islamic belief on people ... Tolerance, freedom, equality, justice and compassion, all are fundamental rules of Islam.

I am not advocating a "lack of principles". Nor am I saying there is no right and there is no wrong. I guess we have different ideas of what 'tolerance, freedom, equality, justice and compassion' mean; or, you have ways of extracting these ideas from certain passages of the Qu'ran while de-emphasizing other passages which do not seem to uphold those ideas.

Freedom of belief is ensured in Islam. Islam considered belief and disbelief as a personal freedom, this issue and who's being wrong and who's being right a matter will be determined by God on the day of Judgment:
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with you on the matter, but do invite (them) to your Lord: for you are assuredly on the Right Way. If they do wrangle with you, say, 'God knows best what it is you are doing.' 'God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." (Holy Qur'an, Al Hajj)
Thus the above Ayah states it's not the Muslim's right or job t to judge the disbelievers; and in this wordly life how is the Muslim supposed to treat the disbelievers?

Answer: "Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…) (Qur'an, Al-Mumtahinah)

As I said in my last post:

And here's a very important point: Even if you disagree with the way Hamas interprets Islam, and even if you can present different quotations to deconstruct their arguments; the mere fact that such interpretations are not uncommon shows that Islam's holy books are not the best and clearest guides to peace and love. If they were truly the best guides for peace and love, these interpretations should be impossible, and extremely rare; yet Muslims support suicide bombings and civilian targeting more than other religious groups, and many terrorist organizations quote Islam's holy books for support.​

[color added for emphasis]

I agree with you that the parts of the Qu'ran which you quoted are generally good and admirable. I did not say that ALL of the Qu'ran is intolerant. However, the fact is that passages like these inspire intolerance:

Kill the pagans, unless they embrace Islam:​

[Pickthal 9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.​

Allah uses believers as an instrument to kill disbelievers:​

[Pickthal 47:4] Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.​

Good Muslims will not love non-Muslims, even if they are family:​

[Pickthal 58:21] Allah hath decreed: Lo! I verily shall conquer, I and My messengers. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.​

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 58:22] Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan.[/SIZE]​

Kill disbelievers if they "persecute" you (cartoons of Mohammad? desecration of the Qu'ran?); fight disbelievers until "religion is for Allah"; if someone attacks you, attack them back in like manner:​

[Pickthal 2:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.​

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:193] And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:194] The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).[/SIZE]​

Don't be friends with Jews and Christians:​

[Pickthal 5:51] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.​

Fight the disbelievers:​

[Pickthal 9:123] O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).​

Kill disbelievers unless they embrace Allah:​

[Pickthal 4:89] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,​

If a believer accidentally kills another believer, set free a believing slave (the punishment isn't the same if a disbeleiver is killed? what about disbelieving slaves? isn't slavery wrong in the first place?):​

[Pickthal 4:92] It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave.​

There is a message that is repeated over and over: disbelievers are evil; they love this worldly life, which is evil; Allah despises them, and righteously punishes them in this world and the next; disbelievers are out to get you and destroy your religion; fight them, unless they "offer you peace" and stop "persecuting" your religion; don't care too much about this life, focus on the afterlife.

 

[England my lionheart]

From what i have read of the qu'ran is'nt it like christianity and has the same storys as the Jewish faith but changed it to suit.
Soddam and gamorah is a good starting point,in the qur'an i think its called lott(not certain)anyway the dead sea scrolls pre date the qur'an by 400 years plus.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

ِAnd when they refrain from their aggression:
"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allāh. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." Al-Anfal.

Just something I'd like to point out: what counts as "aggression"? Is drawing pictures of Mohammad "aggression"? Is disrespect towards the Qu'ran "aggression", worthy of slaughter (after all, persecution is worse than slaughter -- Surah 2:191). Is the mere presence of disbelievers anywhere in Saudi Arabia "aggression"? Obviously, you and many Muslims would say "no". However, the fact that many other Muslims would say "yes" indicates that the Qu'ran, if it does advocate nonviolence, doesn't advocate it well enough, i.m.o.

After all this how's your humanist manifesto, habibi?

Did you read the humanist manifesto? Can you find anything in it that calls for fighting Muslims (whether they "started it" or not, and whether they "submit" or not), or that says Muslims are evil, or asks that Muslims stop worshipping they way they choose? Yet I can easily quote this sort of intolerance (against non-Muslims) from the Islamic texts, as can Hamas, and lots of violent groups in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere.

A Muslim is not a slave to any human and man-made laws are subjected to desires. Before you talk about what Muslims do and do not, look at your country and your "democratic government" first, the government that spreads oppression and terrorism all over the world. What all the Muslims did compared to what America and the Zionist entity did and are doing?!!

I don't support many of the actions of my government. There are many things wrong in the world, but this thread is about what people feel is wrong with Islam (check the thread title).

It doesn't appear to me that you practice what you preach when you want me to change my ideology and impose yours on me, what do you call this? "Lets delete"???!! :areyoucra Tolerance, hah?

I'm not saying you should delete anything from the Qu'ran as an historical document. I'm saying certain passages should be de-emphasized. Islam makes it difficult to do this, because EVERY passage is supposedly the word of Allah, including gems like these:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). Quoted in: Hamas Charter​

or this:

[Pickthal 2:96] And thou wilt find them [the Jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.​

This is NOT a good recipe for peace in the world. If there is ever an end to terrorism, it will not be because people around the world took these passages more seriously.

I would never bow to any one's standards or give up my standards to please any one, my standards are what Allah ordained for me (and anything doesn't contradict God's laws is most welcomed), if you can't accept this, it's your problem

...

Ah the last thing, ISA, I'll teach my children about tolerance, compassion, justice, love and equality by teaching them the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Okay. Why did you not respond to my final two points?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

From what i have read of the qu'ran is'nt it like christianity and has the same storys as the Jewish faith but changed it to suit.
Soddam and gamorah is a good starting point,in the qur'an i think its called lott(not certain)anyway the dead sea scrolls pre date the qur'an by 400 years plus.

Well, theoritically, stories in the Quran are the same of those in the Torah and the Bible...
But we believe that the Bible (old and new teastments) had been corrubted by jews and christians through out the history, thats why stories might seem different..

Soddam and Gamorah is called Ahl Loot in the Quran.. Which mean the "people of Loot"..Where Loot was the prophet sent by God to them..

when Loot's people didn't obey God's orders, He (God) punished them...I think this story is similar to the bible's?

 

[England my lionheart]

What all the Muslims did compared to what America and the Zionist entity did and are doing?!!
Did they blow up the twin towers err no,did they blow up the people on the buses in London errrrm lets see now ,right got it,no they did'nt.
Did they fire rockets into israel ? nope that was hammas so let us see what the USA and UK are guilty of,well i think re guilty of trying to bring democracy to iraq but the problem is islamic countries like syria and iran don't like it just incase it spreads,imagine a democratic middle east.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I won't touch on the topic of Hamas at all in this thread because if I did, I would talk much about the Zionist terrorism and I don't want this thread to turn into another argument about the Zionist-Arab conflict.

I acknowledge that there is Zionist terrorism, but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The fact remains:

• Hamas supports suicide bombing and indiscriminate killing of civilians
• Hamas uses Islam as its foundation, and quotes Islam's holy texts extensively in its charter

I won't go into what Hamas does or does not except in the context of the current conflict/war in Occupied Palestine. If you want to start a new thread, it's up to you.
But one thing should be clear, I do support any legitimate resistance that fight against occupation and tyranny and strive for liberty and independence.

As do I. But blowing oneself up on a crowded bus or a nightclub full of civilians is not "legitimate resistance". This is true no matter how awfully one has been oppressed.

If you don't want to talk about Hamas, we can talk about any of hundreds of groups in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

What all the Muslims did compared to what America and the Zionist entity did and are doing?!!
Did they blow up the twin towers err no,did they blow up the people on the buses in London errrrm lets see now ,right got it,no they did'nt.
Did they fire rockets into israel ? nope that was hammas so let us see what the USA and UK are guilty of,well i think re guilty of trying to bring democracy to iraq but the problem is islamic countries like syria and iran don't like it just incase it spreads,imagine a democratic middle east.

Does that mean we finished the debate regarding "Islam"?!

 

[kai]

Christianity treats everyone to be sinful unless baptised (as I just understood from another thread)..Which is equivilant to being not pure..

its not the same thing and you are wellaware of that , you what najis and kafur mean