What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[TashaN]

Not all Muslims invaded Spain either--it was mostly Berbers, new adherents to Islam. There were no Arabs in any number.

Regards,
Scott

Implying that the invation of Muslims for Spain was a slip or just a mere mistake is not apperciated. I advice you to read more about that period of history.

Spain was already under another foreign ruler whom the people of Spain were suffering from. Muslims didn't just stole that land out from it's people. That was not the case. Althought i wanted to use some islamic resources to prove that to you, because it's accurate and in details, but you would have doubt it. That's why i tried to use neutral resources.

The conquest

The traditional story is that in the year 711, an oppressed Christian chief, Julian, went to Musa ibn Nusair, the governor of North Africa, with a plea for help against the tyrannical Visigoth ruler of Spain, Roderick.

Musa responded by sending the young general Tariq bin Ziyad with an army of 7000 troops. The name Gibraltar is derived from Jabal At-Tariq which is Arabic for 'Rock of Tariq' named after the place where the Muslim army landed.

The story of the appeal for help is not universally accepted. There is no doubt that Tariq invaded Spain, but the reason for it may have more to do with the Muslim drive to enlarge their territory.

The Muslim army defeated the Visigoth army easily, and Roderick was killed in battle.
After the first victory, the Muslims conquered most of Spain and Portugal with little difficulty, and in fact with little opposition. By 720 Spain was largely under Muslim (or Moorish, as it was called) control.
Reasons

One reason for the rapid Muslim success was the generous surrender terms that they offered the people, which contrasted with the harsh conditions imposed by the previous Visigoth rulers.

The ruling Islamic forces were made up of different nationalities, and many of the forces were converts with uncertain motivation, so the establishment of a coherent Muslim state was not easy.
Andalusia

The heartland of Muslim rule was Southern Spain or Andulusia. The name Andalusia comes from the term Al-Andalus used by the Arabs, derived from the Vandals who had been settled in the region.

BBC - Religion & Ethics - Muslim Spain (711-1492): Conquest

As you can see, if it wasn't for Muslims, Christians and Jews would have remain under opression. Muslims set them free, which allowed the world to experince a period of enlightment which released europe from it's darkness and ignorance. These are plain facts in history.

All nations and all religions in europe should be gratful for what the Muslims did back then in Spain, if it wasn't for them, there would be no enlightment for europe at that critical period.

The Muslims were the first great religious force at that time who didn't use their force to convert people. They set them free from opression then gave them the chance to be exposed to Islam if they want, and then they have the choice whether to be Muslims or not. I can't count the massive books which was written by either Jews and Muslims, or Christians and Muslims scholars side by side. Therefore, if anyone is looking to hijack Islam, so i advice him to find another area than this one, because if one insisted to doubt what the Muslims did in Spain and how great they were, he will end up in absolute failure and total disappointment because all nations should be proud of what the Muslims did in Spain.

 

[TashaN]

I am still waiting to find out what would happen if a family of muslims Mr&Mrs and 2 daughters and one daughter decides she does'n want to be a muslim anymore and no matter what the parents say she is adamant,what would happen to her?

What if she feels that Islam doesn't hold all the answers for her life? Shouldn't she have the freedom to choose? And why is this such a critical matter? If God created the human body, male and female, why should He be offended by it? This is a man made concept brought about by the weaknesses and jealousies of men. The very sight of a Muslim street filled with women covered in black seems oppressive, ugly, and dark to me. But on the other hand images of women in strip joints exploiting the weaknesses of men seems dark and ugly to me. I believe the light is found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Muslims seem really hung up when it comes to sex. Almost total repression in this life where it is a natural process for procreation, to lustful abundance in the next where there will be no procreation only the satisfying of ones very human desires.

She is free to decide what is best for her. Islam is not by force. There is no point in being a Muslim if you don't believe in its teachings.

The very sight of a Muslim street filled with women covered in black seems oppressive, ugly, and dark to me. But on the other hand images of women in strip joints exploiting the weaknesses of men seems dark and ugly to me. I believe the light is found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Muslims seem really hung up when it comes to sex. Almost total repression in this life where it is a natural process for procreation, to lustful abundance in the next where there will be no procreation only the satisfying of ones very human desires.

Why are you trying to impose your own values on me and my fellow Muslims?

So, a woman is free to walk in the street half naked and she is not free to choose a more decent clothes for herself just because you think it's ugly and dark?

This is so offensive to me and the Muslims and i can't accept it.

BTW, the scene of "women in black" isn't seen except in KSA, but for some reason it's becoming the default image for a muslim street..
And I do agree that it looks ugly and dark...I don't like it too!

You don't like it because some people in the forums don't like it?

My sister wear in black but that's not because this is Islam, but this is how women in Saudi Arabia used to dress. You will find that in other countries, they will wear the same decent clothes but they might choose other colors.

 

[England my lionheart]

Implying that the invation of Muslims for Spain was a slip or just a mere mistake is not apperciated. I advice you to read more about that period of history.

Spain was already under another foreign ruler whom the people of Spain were suffering from. Muslims didn't just stole that land out from it's people. That was not the case. Althought i wanted to use some islamic resources to prove that to you, because it's accurate and in details, but you would have doubt it. That's why i tried to use neutral resources.



As you can see, if it wasn't for Muslims, Christians and Jews would have remain under opression. Muslims set them free, which allowed the world to experince a period of enlightment which released europe from it's darkness and ignorance. These are plain facts in history.

All nations and all religions in europe should be gratful for what the Muslims did back then in Spain, if it wasn't for them, there would be no enlightment for europe at that critical period.

The Muslims were the first great religious force at that time who didn't use their force to convert people. They set them free from opression then gave them the chance to be exposed to Islam if they want, and then they have the choice whether to be Muslims or not. I can't count the massive books which was written by either Jews and Muslims, or Christians and Muslims scholars side by side. Therefore, if anyone is looking to hijack Islam, so i advice him to find another area than this one, because if one insisted to doubt what the Muslims did in Spain and how great they were, he will end up in absolute failure and total disappointment because all nations should be proud of what the Muslims did in Spain.

In fact in 732 an army led by Abdul Rahman al gafiqi governer general of al andalus was defeated by an army led by Charles Martel of burgundians and Franks,rahman was killed and this battle marked the hi tide mark of muslim invasion

 

[Popeyesays]

Abu Khalid (Truth) says:
"Implying that the invation of Muslims for Spain was a slip or just a mere mistake is not apperciated. I advice you to read more about that period of history.

Spain was already under another foreign ruler whom the people of Spain were suffering from. Muslims didn't just stole that land out from it's people. That was not the case. Althought i wanted to use some islamic resources to prove that to you, because it's accurate and in details, but you would have doubt it. That's why i tried to use neutral resources."

If you read what I said I never said that the invasion was a mistake. I merely said it was conducted by Berbers, not Arabs. Are you trying to raise a strawman? If so, it's not appreciated.

As to reading more about the period, I suppose graduate papers on the military aspects of the invasion of Europe and it's eventual defeat at the hands of Charles the Strong does not count?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

In fact in 732 an army led by Abdul Rahman al gafiqi governer general of al andalus was defeated by an army led by Charles Martel of burgundians and Franks,rahman was killed and this battle marked the hi tide mark of muslim invasion

High tide mark in western Europe, yes. But the Turks would have lots of high tide marks in the Balkans and Eastern Europe still to come.

Regards,
Scott

 

[EiNsTeiN]

It is VERY critical and it is perhaps the most glaring reason why Islam has absolutely nothing of any value to offer people on this small backwater planet. Muslim's are not living "here, now" as their actions are geared to an amorphous ideal that they choose to put their faith into instead of applying their energies into making THIS WORLD a better place.

Tell me, notEinsteiN, what exactly has Islam contributed to the family of man in the last 500 years that has helped ALL human beings? Don't sweat too hard, I'll give you the answer: Absolutely nothng, and that is all that Islam truly has to offer.

Can't be more funnier!!

I keep imagining you "not" replying my posts, and hiding until you finally finding something and start saying your usual bla bla stuff..

First, I really can't understand why can't you read my name? You know it's simple E-i-N-s-T-e-i-N...I do realize that you seem not to know the guy, but fair knowledge of English can let you write it correctly..

Anyway, about what you were trying to say (and really really I can't stop laughing at)..
You do know that in order to live a happilly life after, you need to contribute to THIS life?..right?
Please tell me you know that, otherwise, I will have to start all over again..

And about the muslims' contributions...Please tell me what was Europe's contributions in the dark ages?..

What you don't realize my dear friend is that every nation has its own peaks...Nothing remains the same...

You know why do you have to realize this fact?...Because one day, when muslims start contributing to the humanity again, I don't wanna you to come here and say, how did that happen..Instead, just remember what I told ya above..

Have fun, and keep waiting for the next opportunity to inspire me

 

[England my lionheart]

She is free to decide what is best for her. Islam is not by force. There is no point in being a Muslim if you don't believe in its teachings.



Why are you trying to impose your own values on me and my fellow Muslims?

So, a woman is free to walk in the street half naked and she is not free to choose a more decent clothes for herself just because you think it's ugly and dark?

This is so offensive to me and the Muslims and i can't accept it.



You don't like it because some people in the forums don't like it?

My sister wear in black but that's not because this is Islam, but this is how women in Saudi Arabia used to dress. You will find that in other countries, they will wear the same decent clothes but they might choose other colors.

So if a muslim daughter or wife decides she no longer wants to be a muslim and lives say in iran for example,nothing will happen to her.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

You don't like it because some people in the forums don't like it?

My sister wear in black but that's not because this is Islam, but this is how women in Saudi Arabia used to dress. You will find that in other countries, they will wear the same decent clothes but they might choose other colors.

You are getting me offended!
My sister and mother also wear in black in KSA...But we are forced to since this is the country's tradition...We are not mad at that or anything, but I just don't like it!
In Egypt however, they wear other coloured cloths, yet modest and follow the islamic rules...
I was just stating my openion in the saudi black dresses...(No offence for sure!)

 

[EiNsTeiN]

So if a muslim daughter or wife decides she no longer wants to be a muslim and lives say in iran for example,nothing will happen to her.

Nop...even in the civil law..Nothing will happen to her

 

[TashaN]

I suspect part of the reason for the second-class citizens scenario is that the host countries deem them to be unsuited to integrating into their already thriving society. It's like inviting people into your home, giving them food and shelter, only for them to turn tables on you, demanding that you be respectful of their ways... meanwhile, they are still guests in YOUR house. How long will it be before they evict you and you are forced to live in your garden shed?

IF European countries had any sense they would start mass deportations back to the country of origin for those who are not content with the status quo in their new country. If not, we are going to see religious ghetto's forming across Europe that have a built in mechanism for dealing with imprudent oppressors. One can only wonder when the "invitations" to "revert" to Islam will be given, thus allowing for armed resistence and offensive measures.

Filth discrimination!

 

[England my lionheart]

Nop...even in the civil law..Nothing will happen to her

If that is true i am glad

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I suspect part of the reason for the second-class citizens scenario is that the host countries deem them to be unsuited to integrating into their already thriving society. It's like inviting people into your home, giving them food and shelter, only for them to turn tables on you, demanding that you be respectful of their ways

While christians in our countries aren't second class citizens...

Umm, I should then conclude that:
It's either that muslims are actually second class citizens in Europe for no good reasons, or that being a second class citizen is irrelevant to being a muslim..!
Got yourself into the trap again!

A nice try though!

 

[TashaN]

It is VERY critical and it is perhaps the most glaring reason why Islam has absolutely nothing of any value to offer people on this small backwater planet. Muslim's are not living "here, now" as their actions are geared to an amorphous ideal that they choose to put their faith into instead of applying their energies into making THIS WORLD a better place.

Tell me, notEinsteiN, what exactly has Islam contributed to the family of man in the last 500 years that has helped ALL human beings? Don't sweat too hard, I'll give you the answer: Absolutely nothng, and that is all that Islam truly has to offer.

So you are smart enough, after all. You do notice that you are smart in describing some issues, but the only problem you have is your conclusions.

You said Islam have nothing to offer, then you talked about Muslims!

Then you realized how successful the Muslims were in the past, then you inserted the notion "last 500 years" to draw your false conclusion. Who would fall for that, Paul?

You know well that if the problem was with Islam, they would not have been successful in the past. I do agree with you that contribution of Muslims today is little, but that doesn't mean their religion made them so, but they, themselves have a problem and they must wake up and do something about it, and i hope they already started doing so.

By the way, i don't have to remind you how hypocrite people are in this forum. When we give them examples of Islam's success in the past, they will dismiss it as it's just something about arabs, etc as a nation, but not as a religion "Islam", even though the most famous and successful Muslim scholars weren't even arabs. Then, when it comes to muslims today, they blame Islam for it, not Muslims. :cover:

That's why i gave up in most of these types of discussions long time a go.

 

[TashaN]

Abu Khalid (Truth) says:
"Implying that the invation of Muslims for Spain was a slip or just a mere mistake is not apperciated. I advice you to read more about that period of history.

Spain was already under another foreign ruler whom the people of Spain were suffering from. Muslims didn't just stole that land out from it's people. That was not the case. Althought i wanted to use some islamic resources to prove that to you, because it's accurate and in details, but you would have doubt it. That's why i tried to use neutral resources."

If you read what I said I never said that the invasion was a mistake. I merely said it was conducted by Berbers, not Arabs. Are you trying to raise a strawman? If so, it's not appreciated.

As to reading more about the period, I suppose graduate papers on the military aspects of the invasion of Europe and it's eventual defeat at the hands of Charles the Strong does not count?

Regards,
Scott

Then why you were asserting it was invaded by non-arabs, but some new muslims. What does this have anything to do with the issue itself?

Can you explain that please?

 

[TashaN]

So if a muslim daughter or wife decides she no longer wants to be a muslim and lives say in iran for example,nothing will happen to her.

I answered you regarding Islamic ruling, but if you want to ask about a specific country, you better check up with them, not me. I'm not Iranian.

For instance, just because a Christian in some place on earth did something, that doesn't mean a Christian in America for instance will be held accountable for it, don't you agree with me?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I would like to ask any muslim who is going to have children if they will give them a choice of which religion they follow or will they be hereditary muslims like most muslims.

mm...As for us, we believe people are born muslims by default..
As for me, I will try reaching the children into realizing that this is the truth by themselves..

My Dad used to talk to me about such stuff, and bought me books in comparative religions and so...And now I'm convinced with islam the most, so he indirectly helped me choosing myself..

 

[England my lionheart]

So you are smart enough, after all. You do notice that you are smart in describing some issues, but the only problem you have is your conclusions.

You said Islam have nothing to offer, then you talked about Muslims!
Then you realized how successful the Muslims were in the past, then you instred the notion "last 500 years" to draw your false conclusion. Who would fall for that, Paul?

You know well that if the problem was with Islam, they would not have been successful in the past. I do agree with you that contribution of Muslims today is little, but that doesn't mean their religion made them so, but they, themselves have a problem and they must wake up and do something about it, and i hope they already started doing so.

By the way, i don't have to remind you how people are hypocrite in this forum. When we give them examples of Islam's success in the past, they will dismiss it as it's just something about arabs, etc as a nation, but not as a religion "Islam", even though the most famous and successful Muslim scholars weren't even arabs. Then, when it comes to muslims today, they blame Islam for it, not Muslims. :cover:

That's why i gave up in most of these types of discussions long time a go.

I myself do not equate islam as just arabs as i know pakistan and other countries are muslims aswell,and islams success was in the middle ages where it has stayed imo.
Although there are many normal human beings who happen to be muslims out there obviously there are others like the taliban and the way they treat women and are very backward,Medaeval and they are muslims,hammas are muslims al qieda members are muslims so my question is what do you feel is wrong with islam.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I myself do not equate islam as just arabs as i know pakistan and other countries are muslims aswell,and islams success was in the middle ages where it has stayed imo.
Although there are many normal human beings who happen to be muslims out there obviously there are others like the taliban and the way they treat women and are very backward,Medaeval and they are muslims,hammas are muslims al qieda members are muslims so my question is what do you feel is wrong with islam.

My question would rather be, what do you feel is wrong with those people?
Taliban or any other such a thing, is just a huge missinterpretation of Islam..
And it could happen!..
To know the truth, one has to get back to basics, and start interpreting Islam from the beginning, and comparing what he gets with what the prophet used to do in similar situations..

This is how I get my religion...And I believe we are living in an era full of missinterpretation or what we call "fitan", that everyday, new stuff will come up that Islam never mentioned, but somehow, everybody might get convinced with..etc.

I try doing what the prophet has told us...Get back to basics, and whenever such an era comes, we should ONLY get back to the Quran and Sunna, despite what people might say or think...

Hoping just to follow the safe side..

 

[Panda]

My question would rather be, what do you feel is wrong with those people?
Taliban or any other such a thing, is just a huge missinterpretation of Islam..
And it could happen!..

Maybe they have the right interpratation? Maybe you have it wrong.

 

[Panda]

You said Islam have nothing to offer, then you talked about Muslims!

Then you realized how successful the Muslims were in the past, then you inserted the notion "last 500 years" to draw your false conclusion. Who would fall for that, Paul?

I would say this is where you argument falls down. In the past Islam was only sucessful and "tolirent" in comparison to other cultures at the time. However while these cultures have developted and adapted Islam has stayed in the past.

You know well that if the problem was with Islam, they would not have been successful in the past. I do agree with you that contribution of Muslims today is little, but that doesn't mean their religion made them so, but they, themselves have a problem and they must wake up and do something about it, and i hope they already started doing so.

See above, they were only in comparison to even worse things. Just because it was better than the others that were around at the time doesn't make it good.