What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I am not trying to impose my values on anyone. We were discussing freedom to choose. Would I go into a tribe of Pygmies and try to make the women cover their breast? No! But I wouldn't want them moving into my neighborhood without making some adjustments to assimilate into our culture. The agenda for a lot of Muslims is to intergrate and then change the culture and laws to suite them. A good example is the U.K.
YouTube - Muslims Invade Britain & Begin On USA
YouTube - England - Islam Victory in Europe - Muslims

I just now watched only a part of that second vid. Maybe UK should deport them since they hate it? Just a thought. You know I'm not fan of the US gov't myself, and it's no secret, but I don't go to "muslim" rallies and then talk about bombing them!

Was that even serious? Who were they "talking to"? Like where were they and what exactly were they protesting and why did they gather?

Hmm I'll try to dig up a vid on the tube where I saw some muslims in UK debating one another and one side was the bomd you all to hell side, and the other side were muslims who actually know something about Islam. And they were disputing and refuting them to their faces. I'll see if I can round that up.

 

[astarath]

It's view on Christ and his sacrifice!

 

[DarkSun]

People are allowed to believe what they wish. For you to find fault in a religion, simply because it is not yours, is nothing short of silly.

You silly head.

=P

 

[astarath]

I believe the question of the post is "What is wrong with Islam" the only stipulation I hold against the tenets of Islam if the deniance of the role and sacrifice and Christ and therefore the removal of the concept of grace!

 

[Popeyesays]

I believe the question of the post is "What is wrong with Islam" the only stipulation I hold against the tenets of Islam if the deniance of the role and sacrifice and Christ and therefore the removal of the concept of grace!

The term "Grace" occurs some 42 times in the Palmer translation of the Quran.

From the Surah of the Heifer we have:
"Then did ye turn aside after this, and were it not for God's grace towards you and His mercy, ye would have been of those who lose."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"For a bad bargain have they sold their souls, not to believe in what God has revealed, grudging because God sends down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He will; and they have brought on themselves wrath after wrath and for the misbelievers is there shameful woe."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"For a bad bargain have they sold their souls, not to believe in what God has revealed, grudging because God sends down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He will; and they have brought on themselves wrath after wrath and for the misbelievers is there shameful woe."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"Verily God is Lord of grace to men, but most men give no thanks."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"And were it not for God's repelling men one with another the earth would become spoiled; but God is Lord of grace over the worlds."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"The devil promises you poverty and bids you sin, but God promises you pardon from Him and grace, for God both embraces and knows."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

That's just ONE Surah.

Regards,

Scott

 

[astarath]

Allow me to clarify: The Christian version of grace in which Christ's sacrifice alone is redemption of sin and the conduit through which we attain God's Grace!

 

[Popeyesays]

But that definition is far too restrictive.

grace(definition) 8.Theology. a.the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b.the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. c.a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces. d.Also called "stete of grace"the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect.

 

[astarath]

Once again definition 8 of 8 there are 7 others in that dictionary and as a christian the one I have already stated which is not too restrictive by any means it is quite simplistic actually Christ must have been sacrificed for a purpose that purpose was Grace!

 

[Popeyesays]

Once again definition 8 of 8 there are 7 others in that dictionary and as a christian the one I have already stated which is not too restrictive by any means it is quite simplistic actually Christ must have been sacrificed for a purpose that purpose was Grace!

No Grace comes from God, even if Jesus' sacrifice brings man to a state of grace.

Baha`i's follow a few precepts about "grace":

"20. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My claim on thee is great, it cannot be forgotten. My grace to thee is plenteous, it cannot be veiled. My love has made in thee its home, it cannot be concealed. My light is manifest to thee, it cannot be obscured."

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"34. O DWELLERS OF MY PARADISE!
With the hands of loving-kindness I have planted in the holy garden of paradise the young tree of your love and friendship, and have watered it with the goodly showers of My tender grace; now that the hour of its fruiting is come, strive that it may be protected, and be not consumed with the flame of desire and passion."

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

The TaNakh tells us:

"3,3 Let not kindness and truth forsake thee; {N}
bind them about thy neck, write them upon the table of thy heart;
3,4 So shalt thou find grace and good favour in the sight of God and man.

(Kesuvim (Writings), Mishlei (Proverbs))

"3,34 If it concerneth the scorners, He scorneth them, but unto the humble He giveth grace."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Mishlei (Proverbs))

"45,3 Thou art fairer than the children of men; grace is poured upon thy lips; {N}
therefore God hath blessed thee for ever."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

"84,12 For the LORD God is a sun and a shield; {N}
the LORD giveth grace and glory; {N}
no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

This is the English translation direct from the Hebrew, of course.

Regards,
Scott

 

[astarath]

No Grace comes from God, even if Jesus' sacrifice brings man to a state of grace.

Baha`i's follow a few precepts about "grace":

"20. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My claim on thee is great, it cannot be forgotten. My grace to thee is plenteous, it cannot be veiled. My love has made in thee its home, it cannot be concealed. My light is manifest to thee, it cannot be obscured."

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"34. O DWELLERS OF MY PARADISE!
With the hands of loving-kindness I have planted in the holy garden of paradise the young tree of your love and friendship, and have watered it with the goodly showers of My tender grace; now that the hour of its fruiting is come, strive that it may be protected, and be not consumed with the flame of desire and passion."

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

The TaNakh tells us:

"3,3 Let not kindness and truth forsake thee; {N}
bind them about thy neck, write them upon the table of thy heart;
3,4 So shalt thou find grace and good favour in the sight of God and man.

(Kesuvim (Writings), Mishlei (Proverbs))

"3,34 If it concerneth the scorners, He scorneth them, but unto the humble He giveth grace."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Mishlei (Proverbs))

"45,3 Thou art fairer than the children of men; grace is poured upon thy lips; {N}
therefore God hath blessed thee for ever."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

"84,12 For the LORD God is a sun and a shield; {N}
the LORD giveth grace and glory; {N}
no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly."

(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

This is the English translation direct from the Hebrew, of course.

Regards,
Scott

As a Christian Grace is not attainable save the sacrifice, Islam differs on this point and as a Christian I feel that this is something wrong with Islam as per the OP

 

[Popeyesays]

As a Christian Grace is not attainable save the sacrifice, Islam differs on this point and as a Christian I feel that this is something wrong with Islam as per the OP

Well, to me Grace was obviously attainable in the time of Abraham, Moses, Noah, David, Solomon and John the Baptist was filled with Grace.

And after Jesus Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah are the instruments of God's Grace to man.

Regards,
Scott

 

[astarath]

Righteousness alone brings one to Grace. The men you speak of were all righteous and as such before the sacrifice adhered to God's law in a pleasing manner to receive Grace. After the sacrifice good intentions profit a man nothing without the conduit of righteousness offered by Christ's sacrifice!

 

[DarkSun]

Allow me to clarify: The Christian version of grace in which Christ's sacrifice alone is redemption of sin and the conduit through which we attain God's Grace!

No.

We are all sinners at birth. Confirmed Christians are no different, and no amount of holy water is going to fix that.

Grace is a gift from God alone. We don't deserve it, but it's there. Faith in Christ alone is not a definite means of attaining Grace. You could have faith in Jesus, our lord, and be a terrible person.

Just have a look through these. They pretty much summarise my view on what earns a person Grace.

Corinthians 13
Matthew 19:19
Deuteronomy 7:9
Matthew 5:3

If you follow Jesus' word to the letter, then even without faith in Him, you are doing the right thing.

And... Don't kill me for saying this, but Islam and Christianity are almost literally cousens by scripture. It's the same God that we're worshipping... just from a different viewpoint.

 

[DarkSun]

Righteousness alone brings one to Grace. The men you speak of were all righteous and as such before the sacrifice adhered to God's law in a pleasing manner to receive Grace. After the sacrifice good intentions profit a man nothing without the conduit of righteousness offered by Christ's sacrifice!

Not everything is black and white. The sooner you see that, the easier life will become.

People are not all born with the "Free Will" to decide what they wish to believe. People born into most Islamic societies would be absolutely outcast if they suddenly decided to convert to Christianity, and since Islam is all they have known, that is what they adhere to.


Besides, Allah is the same entity as God. It is in no way wrong to have reverence to God under a different name.

As I've said before, if you are a "righteous" person, even today, then you have earned God's grace, irrespective of your beliefs.

If anything else were the case, then it would be nothing short of unjust.

 

[kai]

Not everything is black and white. The sooner you see that, the easier life will become.

People are not all born with the "Free Will" to decide what they wish to believe. People born into most Islamic societies would be absolutely outcast if they suddenly decided to convert to Christianity, and since Islam is all they have known, that is what they adhere to.


Besides, Allah is the same entity as God. It is in no way wrong to have reverence to God under a different name.

As I've said before, if you are a "righteous" person, even today, then you have earned God's grace, irrespective of your beliefs.

If anything else were the case, then it would be nothing short of unjust.

if allah is the same entity as god why has allah/god set up a different set of rules for another set of people 1400 years after he set up a set of rules for christians , and another set of rules centuries before that for jews

 

[YmirGF]

if allah is the same entity as god why has allah/god set up a different set of rules for another set of people 1400 years after he set up a set of rules for christians , and another set of rules centuries before that for jews

Silly wabbit, those nasty Christians changed "god's" word. Therefore God needed to deliver his great message through an illiterate Arab every time the poor fellow had a seizure - just to put the record straight. Sheesh, Kai.

 

[kai]

Silly wabbit, those nasty Christians changed "god's" word. Therefore God needed to deliver his great message through an illiterate Arab every time the poor fellow had a seizure - just to put the record straight. Sheesh, Kai.

well i knew the excuse, i was sort of debating if they are the same god at all, why didnt he tell the jews to pray five times a day? i think it was easier to convert jews and christians if , "hey its the same god anyway"

 

[TashaN]

There are minorities within the Middle East, that will willingly die "in the name of Allah", taking as many "evildoers" with them as they can.

It is nothing short of disgusting when any person decides to kill in the name of God.

That is one of my problems.

I hope that you won't add something to posts you are willing to quote next time because that might confuse some people and make them believe that it was the original poster's post. "the problem free" notion is not mine.

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

if allah is the same entity as god why has allah/god set up a different set of rules for another set of people 1400 years after he set up a set of rules for christians , and another set of rules centuries before that for jews

I guess maybe you meant after 600 years?

Anyway, i would like to ask you, do you think humanity have been the same since the first human being stepped on this earth?

If you know the answer to this question so no need to answer yours because you would know it already.

Silly wabbit, those nasty Christians changed "god's" word. Therefore God needed to deliver his great message through an illiterate Arab every time the poor fellow had a seizure - just to put the record straight. Sheesh, Kai.

Do you think it's silly? why? because God didn't choose you to deliver the message? or maybe your so called visions are not good enough or perfect enough to make you believe it's from God?

Don't you wish to be a prophet, at least?

well i knew the excuse, i was sort of debating if they are the same god at all, why didnt he tell the jews to pray five times a day? i think it was easier to convert jews and christians if , "hey its the same god anyway"

Yes, they are the same God in the since that father "in christianity" = Allah, but the combination of all 3 gods in 1 doesn't exist in Islam. God is one, so that means He is indeed One.

 

[kai]

I guess maybe you meant after 600 years? yes thank you for pointing out my mistake

Anyway, i would like to ask you, do you think humanity have been the same since the first human being stepped on this earth? my point is more about worship than humanity itself its about the forms of worship given to jews and then to christians and then to muslims and then to ba hais and then to mormons ---but i may have strayed to far , i think you know what i mean

If you know the answer to this question so no need to answer yours because you would know it already.



Do you think it's silly? why? because God didn't choose you to deliver the message? or maybe your so called visions are not good enough or perfect enough to make you believe it's from God?

Don't you wish to be a prophet, at least?



Yes, they are the same God in the since that father "in christianity" = Allah, but the combination of all 3 gods in 1 doesn't exist in Islam. God is one, so that means He is indeed One.

i get the "one" bit i dont understand the change in methods of worship or essentials to reach paradise