What do you gain from criticism of a religious teaching you do not follow or believe in?

[PureX]

If they threaten my children with bronze agec woo then yes

Except that you don't believe any of it's true, so there is no threat.

(PureX: "People believe all kinds of things to be true")

Not my problem

But you just said that it IS a problem because they threaten your children. So is it a problem or isn't it? Or don't you even know? I'm just trying to understand your thinking, here.

(PureX: "I like debate, and criticism, but they have to be done within the context of curiosity and an open mind. And in fact, here of RF, that is very often NOT the context within which it is being attempted.")

There is an answer to that if you don't like it.

How is this even a cogent response? Did you accidentally leave some of your text out?

(PureX: "And so I think it's appropriate that we ask ourselves (and each other) why we are engaged in it, really.")

I have done that. My answer is fun, enjoyment, education, experience.

How/why is it "fun" for you? How it is "educational" to you? What "experience" are you gaining from it? If you've really thought about this, you should be able to answer these questions.

 

[F1fan]

One thing i agree with you on. Most atheists or other forms of non-believers are actually very nice, this thread is not actually targeting them.
This thread actually only count for 4-5 hardcore atheists who "terroris" every religious discussion they can.
And you @F1fan isn't on that list of 4-5 people.

I think if you posted some unnamed examples we could a sense of what you are referring to. I've seen a few cynical posters but that isn't too bad of a behavior.

What I do not agree on is that it is the belivers who should leave or quit discussing in RF.
If atheists dont like religion and dont want to know or understand why belivers believe what they do....it is actually the atheists who then should move on.

Well anyone should move on if they feel like they aren't getting something out of it. I'll say we do see many theists who get trapped in their own beliefs. They think they understand themselves well and know why they believe only to face some hard questions in debate. It can shake up a confident believer. So answers get avoided, or are bad answers and upon further questioning it never gets answered. That sort of disingenuous attitude gets boring and I have moved on.

Plus, I don't think atheists hate religion. It might feel that way because religious belief tends to be personal, and when beliefs are questioned the believer might feel the sting of their ego being attacked. It's not the case, it feels that way. So that is a lesson for the theist right there.

 

[F1fan]

In 95% of the cases, no, but as I said in the other reply to you, there are 4-5 atheists in RF who are not interested in hearing the actual answer from believer but only to speak badly about any religious beliefs they can.
Thos3 atheists aren't here to understand

Isn't there a way to block certain members? Or just ignore them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think if you posted some unnamed examples we could a sense of what you are referring to. I've seen a few cynical posters but that isn't too bad of a behavior.


Well anyone should move on if they feel like they aren't getting something out of it. I'll say we do see many theists who get trapped in their own beliefs. They think they understand themselves well and know why they believe only to face some hard questions in debate. It can shake up a confident believer. So answers get avoided, or are bad answers and upon further questioning it never gets answered. That sort of disingenuous attitude gets boring and I have moved on.

Plus, I don't think atheists hate religion. It might feel that way because religious belief tends to be personal, and when beliefs are questioned the believer might feel the sting of their ego being attacked. It's not the case, it feels that way. So that is a lesson for the theist right there.

If you go in to the discussion @MyM where she ask people to ask questions about Islam, that thread is full of crap made by the 4-5 atheists i am speaking about.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Isn't there a way to block certain members? Or just ignore them.

Will they learn anything if someone does not dare to stand up to them? I tried blocking in the past, they just find new people to bully.

Personally I dont care about their "attacks" on me anymore. I am fighting for others now.

 

[F1fan]

I expect theists to feel as if they have God on their side, and they should feel that presence in debate. I always find it odd when a believer feels attacked and alone when they should have the advantage of truth as a significant power.

This whole experience offers things for believers to reflect on IF they take the time to stand back and examine every part of their experience. They don't have to feel defensive, or make comments that are so dubious that they get asked hard questions, or even harassment.

 

[PureX]

Eh... I am fine with the moniker "attack" if we're talking about mere beliefs. Notice the use of the word "mere" there - which indicates a minimum of importance. That's where beliefs like the ones in question sit on a scale of zero importance to maximum importance... on the low end... minimum... not very important. You're free to think otherwise... but I am free to estimate the value of said beliefs how I see fit... and that's where I put them.

Does this apply to your own beliefs? Or just to those of others?

I ask because I, likewise, consider our beliefs to be mostly irrelevant. But I have found it impossible to explain this to just about anyone else. They all seem to think their beliefs are of the utmost importance, and are even sacrosanct.

But then they can usually just be found moving on to the next intended target. I am all about ceasing that nonsense as well. I don't want them moving on and subjecting anyone else with their ideas. I mean... for all I know, that next person might actually BELIEVE them! Which would be just terrible.

Why do you care what anyone else believes. You just said beliefs are of little importance.

Also, isn't it a good thing for us to exchange our ideas or truth, even bad ones? After all, the more possible truths we have available to us, the more and better choices we're likely to make for ourselves. Don't you think?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I expect theists to feel as if they have God on their side, and they should feel that presence in debate. I always find it odd when a believer feels attacked and alone when they should have the advantage of truth as a significant power.

This whole experience offers things for believers to reflect on IF they take the time to stand back and examine every part of their experience. They don't have to feel defensive, or make comments that are so dubious that they get asked hard questions, or even harassment.

There are many believers who just started their journey who has notvyet a good connection with the God they believe in.
Or the more advanced believers do also struggle with certain aspects of the teaching.

Just because they are believers does not mean they can answers every question in a clear manner. Or even understand on a deep enough wisdom level.

They may then feel the constant push from non-believers to be very unpleasant

 

[RestlessSoul]

Off the top of my head, they opposed assisted dying

The bill that originated in the HoL, and is currently at the committee stage there?
You have no objection to an unelected 2nd chamber then, you just don't like Bishops sitting alongside Lords?

 

[F1fan]

If you go in to the discussion @MyM where she ask people to ask questions about Islam, that thread is full of crap made by the 4-5 atheists i am speaking about.

OK, I looked. Maybe a few borderline questions but I wouldn't say harrassment.

That person did open the door to any broad set of questions about Islam, and that means anything goes. Since she didn't set a limit or a particular branch of Islam posters will try to find these out. That can mean questions that are hard for Muslims. I've asked moderate Muslims about terrorists in Islam after they claim some sort of divine knowledge and truth. It's a hard question but it is fair to ask. Moderate Muslims don't like questions about extremists, and I don't blame them. Theists need to narrow the range of questions, not open the door to any question if they have things they want to avoid.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, I was indoctrinated at school and Sunday school from 4-years until 16-years old

Me too. I'll never forget assembly at CofE infants school.

 

[F1fan]

There are many believers who just started their journey who has notvyet a good connection with the God they believe in.
Or the more advanced believers do also struggle with certain aspects of the teaching.

Just because they are believers does not mean they can answers every question in a clear manner. Or even understand on a deep enough wisdom level.

They may then feel the constant push from non-believers to be very unpleasant

It's all a set of lessons. I think the more open and sincere a believer is the more support they will get, even from atheists. It's the more hardcore believer that will invite more pushback. It's all lessons there to be learned.

 

[PureX]

Yes, but you asked about attacking rather than criticising, which is a bit leading. People do both (in all directions) but it is important to clearly distinguish between the two.

There is no clear distinction between them because the distinction is subjective. It should be differentiated by the idea being separate from the person asserting it. But few people here or elsewhere are able to recognize that difference. They think that to criticize the idea is to "attack" the person asserting it (especially if it's them). And we cannot control what other people think.

 

[Spirit of Light]

OK, I looked. Maybe a few borderline questions but I wouldn't say harrassment.

That person did open the door to any broad set of questions about Islam, and that means anything goes. Since she didn't set a limit or a particular branch of Islam posters will try to find these out. That can mean questions that are hard for Muslims. I've asked moderate Muslims about terrorists in Islam after they claim some sort of divine knowledge and truth. It's a hard question but it is fair to ask. Moderate Muslims don't like questions about extremists, and I don't blame them. Theists need to narrow the range of questions, not open the door to any question if they have things they want to avoid.

So to you, each time a person of faith want to ask a question or let others ask them question about their beliefs.
They have to add a user manual for the non-believer to read first?

I dont think non-believer are that dumb...they know and understand well what is a good question for learning.

And even in this thread some non-believers have admitted, they dont care about knowing the answer they recieve from the believer.
That becomes mocking...

 

[Sand Dancer]

This thread is toward the people in RF who every day create OP critiquing any religious teaching they don't believe in or follow themselves.

Question:
What do you gain from it?

Are your OP made so you can learn from believers, or just to mock people you disagree with?

Does it matter to you that some people believe and live their life differently to what you do?

When a believer as you to stop the harrasment, why do you keep pushing? Don't you have respect for other people?

It only matters if a person puts their beliefs into actions that intrudes into a country's government, harms another person or otherwise forces them to obey them. Would they want people to do that to them? Of course not. That's not loving your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's all a set of lessons. I think the more open and sincere a believer is the more support they will get, even from atheists. It's the more hardcore believer that will invite more pushback. It's all lessons there to be learned.

But why the need for pushbacks? Why not just accept that what they telling is their personal belief?

 

[Spirit of Light]

It only matters if a person puts their beliefs into actions that intrudes into a country's government or otherwise forces other people to obey them. Would they want people to do that to them? Of course not. That's not loving your neighbor as yourself.

I agree, religion and politics should not have been mixed

 

[ChristineM]

Except that you don't believe any of it's true, so there is no threat.
But you just said that it IS a problem because they threaten your children. So is it a problem or isn't it? Or don't you even know? I'm just trying to understand your thinking, here.

How is this even a cogent response? Did you accidentally leave some of your text out?

How/why is it "fun" for you? How it is "educational" to you? What "experience" are you gaining from it? If you've really thought about this, you should be able to answer these questions.

The threat is made, whether i believe it or not, no one even attempts threats to get their way.

Beliefs are not my problem, threats are.

No i left nothing out, you simply didn't understand.

Of course i would and have done several times when asked but see no reason to waste tine repeating myself.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I agree, religion and politics should not have been mixed

It wasn't supposed to be, but yet...

 

[PureX]

It only matters if a person puts their beliefs into actions that intrudes into a country's government or otherwise forces other people to obey them. Would they want people to do that to them? Of course not. That's not loving your neighbor as yourself.

But doesn't everyone do that? Otherwise why do we even vote? Aren't we voting for political representatives? With the intent that they represent our ideas about how government should be conducted?

The problem, of course, is that way too many of us are now voting not for politicians that will further the well-being of the nation as a whole, but that will serve only and exclusively our own agendas.