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What do you think of Purgatory?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Ecclesiastes 12:7 B is clear that one's spirit is a neuter "IT" Not a person.
ALL of a wicked person is ' destroyed forever ' -> Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22; Rev. 21:8
We find the word ' rot ' at Proverbs 10:7 in connection to the wicked one's name.
No fire needed for something to rot. Just the blotting out of one's name - Psalm 9:5
Also, the Bible's definition of the Bible's lake of fire is defined as ' second death ' - Rev. 20:14
Or, as Jeremiah 51:39,57 says ' perpetual sleep '. A lasting sleep that one never wakes us.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I might think of my daughter in law as my daughter, but if I were doing my genealogy I would not make that claim.
Luke says, "23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, ", so no, this is not the genealogy through Mary.
Matthew traces through Jesus' Paternal line - Matthew 1:16. Mary was the daughter of Heli.
Luke traces through Jesus' Maternal line. Mother Mary through David's line.- Luke 3:31
At that record keeping time (Not as we would today) son-in-law was considered as son.
Back then also there was No word for bachelor, but that does Not mean there were No bachelors.
Joseph being called ' son of Heli ' thus would be understood in that time frame as son-in-law.
How lovely that you think of your daughter-in-law as daughter. Quite a compliment.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Why are you so concerned?
Are you trying to teach us that Divine justice "has no teeth"?
..so we might as well do as we please?
It's a very unbalanced view .. millions of people can suffer through oppression by "Pharaohs" for
>60 years, and nothing bad will happen to them .. they just cease to exist.
It's plain nonsense. G-d allows us all to suffer now, but not in any future life? .. that's man-made
fairy land philosophy.
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SalamThis question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.
Purgatory - Wikipedia
You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.
Hell surrounds disbelievers to some degree in this world. Paradise surrounds believers in this world to some degree. After death, hell surrounds disbelievers more. And paradise surrounds believers more. However, both of these are dormant in this world and after death that a person who is blind to God and his justice, will not witness them to the degree of certainty. They won't manifest fully till the day of judgment.
It's on the day of judgment, when souls will no longer be asleep but realize their deeds. Whatever punishment is delivered by Angels (a) till day of judgment pales to the day of judgment, and in no way manifests the truth as the day of judgment will.
Also, people who die under control of Satan will be under his control till day of judgment per Quran. This found in Surah The Bees, when it says Satan today is their Wali because of what they did.
On day of judgment, souls will realize Satan cannot save them nor can they save him. They won't even try to put a resistance when they witness God's exalted ones as well as Angels (a).
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nope. It says no such thing.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
I’d say that it is the state of being that one must pass through if one has not, during physical life, understood one’s part in the sufferings of others.This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.
Purgatory - Wikipedia
You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.
Purgatory is then the phase in which we get to experience and repent the suffering that we have caused, so that our soul is freed from it and can returning to/ reunite with source at peace.
Humbly,
Hermit
Yes… but what happens in the second death?
Catholicism is very clear.
God gave us free will. He basically says we can do whatever we like with our own life.
But if we violate other people's freedom or we harm others, yes, we are guilty.
He will judge us.
And so many people are victimized by merciless people. By exploiters and greedy people. So they cannot go to Heaven. Ever.
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
1000 years of actual fire.
Thank you for your reply. I had not considered that God would 'want' future suffering.
Sounds to me like a god enjoying masochism or being sadistic.
So, tortured forever to me is what is man-made fairy-land philosophy.
Without the Resurrection Hope then 'yes' do as one pleases.
Without a future resurrection there is No real point to life.
The humble meek who will inherit the Earth are not meant to be here to suffer.
Sin = death. Without death means there will be No more sin - 1st Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
No more sin equals No more suffering. ( No suffering purpose meant in the Garden of Eden )
Since the Bible's God is "God "IS" Love" and "God "IS" Light" then there is No darkness in God - 1 John 1:5; 4:16
Rather, it is the 'god' of this world aka Satan (2nd Cor. 4:4) who is the trouble maker.
None of us ask to be born, so why should a wicked person be allowed to live forever ?
So, 'yes' to me Divine Justice has teeth ( Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 )
Teeth to get rid of the trouble makers aka the wicked so humble meek people can live in peace.
Peaceful healthy conditions returned as originally found in the Garden of Eden.
God's loving purpose was to have Earth filled with only righteous people.
What crime could a wicked person commit to equal suffering forever?
That would Not be 'equal justice' because the righteous would continue to suffer at the hands of the wicked.
Yes, agree we can do whatever we like just as Adam and Eve chose to listen or not listen.
In the Bible I find God has committed all judging to His Son - John 5:22,27,30; 7:24
Judging on the 'last day' - John 12:48 ( Jesus' coming 1,000 year day )
Thus, judged on the basis of Jesus' teachings as found in Scripture .
First, those judged who are alive on Earth as the soon coming time of separation on Earth - Matthew 25:31-34,37
So, 'yes' merciless, exploiters and greedy never get resurrected to Heaven. Ever. - Rev. 2:10; 20:6.
And, merciless, exploiters and greedy can also never be part of the meek who will inherit the earthly part of God's coming kingdom. The 'thy kingdom come...' when God's will, His purpose, will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven.
When the meek who inherit the Earth (earthly part of God's Kingdom) all the merciless, exploiters and greedy will be gone forever.
Since both Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep ' in death - Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Then ' second death ' would also equate to unconscious 'sleep'
Please notice what kind of sleep as Jeremiah 51:39,57 brings to our attention:
A permanent sleep with No chance of waking up ever again.
Sinner Satan and all the wicked are destroyed in ' second death ' - Rev. 21:8
Jesus is the one who will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B; Romans 16:20
ALL the wicked will be put out of existence becoming extinct forever and ever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
I wonder how the above would harmonize with Romans 6:23,7 because since ' death' is the total full complete asking price paid for sin, then how could a freed soul Not be free
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
G-d does not want anybody to suffer .. but they do..
..what does that tell you?
That is what many atheists say about G-d .. why does G-d not intervene, and stop people
suffering?
Now, they mean, and not 60 years time..
You it is, who mention the word "forever" .. I merely said that G-d is immortal, and
our souls belong to G-d .. which you agree with.
..but where we disagree is on the subject of souls being "blotted out" ..
Why can't suffering souls be blotted out right here and now, if it were true?
You mean, if we all die, and there is nothing more .. I entirely agree .. but that is what you say
about billions of souls .. they will cease to exist.
That is false .. all souls will be present at the day of reckoning.
..so why are they here, suffering then?
Too simplistic .. if that were true, G-d could have made that so .. but He didn't .. He tests
us all, and we are all sinners .. and G-d forgives whom He wills, and punishes whom He wills.
You're asking the wrong question .. given the immortality of souls:-
Try asking "what does it take for a wicked person to become righteous?" .. and will everybody
become righteous? No!
So they are destroyed.
Tells me: basically false clergy are ignoring what the Bible really teaches.
God does Not ''yet' intervene because two (2) things must first take place:
1) The news about God's kingdom (Dan.2:44) must be proclaimed internationally as Jesus said - Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8
2) The powers in charge will be saying, " Peace and Security...." as mentioned at 1st Thess. 5:2-3
The reason why wicked ones are Not yet blotted out is because the coming ' time of separation ' has Not yet happened as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-34,37
'On the day of reckoning' is the coming 'day' or 'time of separation' for the living on Earth.
As far as the wicked they will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
If Adam and Eve died before having children we would Not be here.
Time has allowed for all of us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
Who tempted/tested Eve but God's enemy Satan the Devil.
Who tested the man Job but God's enemy Satan the Devil.- Job 2:4-5
I realize most people think or believe they are immortal and have a death-proof soul that lives on after death.
That is Not a Bible teaching because 'the soul that sins dies' - Ezekiel 18:4,20 - Like Adam we are mortal - Gen. 3:19
What does it take for a wicked person to become righteous is: Jesus answers he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
In other words, apply Jesus' words found at his teaching on the Sermon on the Mount besides applying his New Commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has.
So, all have the opportunity to repent but because we are all created with free-will choices Not all repent.
God forces No one to choose to be righteous or choose to be wicked, it is a personal free choice for us to make.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Exactly .. and that is why people "deserve" to suffer in hell .. because they refuse to repent.
It is not that souls are tortured due to spite or arrogance, but a consequence of reality.
In the Bible there is NO suffering in biblical hell
ALL of the dead are sleeping (R.I.P.) resting in peace (No pain)
Jesus and the OT both teach unconscious sleep (Not pain) in death
Please see Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Just as there was NO post-mortem penalty for Adam, NO double jeopardy for Adam, there is none for anyone else
Even Romans 6:23,7 tells us the price we pay for sin is: death. NOT death plus anything else
In the Bible even righteous people go to biblical hell including dead Jesus - Acts 2:27
Biblical hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Sleep until awakened from death's deep sleep on the coming Resurrection Day - Acts 24:15
Resurrection 'wake up' Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years.