InChrist
Free4ever
In other words, you mean lots of requirements, effort, and burden. Jesus' work on the cross just simply was not sufficient to save anyone.
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What does it take to get to Heaven?
- Thread starter Flat Earth Kyle
- Start date
In other words, you mean lots of requirements, effort, and burden. Jesus' work on the cross just simply was not sufficient to save anyone.
Shermana
Heretic
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InChrist
Free4ever
Shermana
Heretic
In your interpretation, absolutely. Not only that, but you are saying that the actual words of Jesus are insufficient rather than actually disproving my claim in using them.
Your interpretation basically involves a manmade Christology that ignores pretty much everything Jesus said. I can promise you that Jesus does not approve of the way you view his death.
Jesus is the Sacrifice, you have to actually make use of that Sacrifice by obedience and "Striving" for the narrow gate. You don't just do it by claiming to believe, he specifically warns against that.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
What a way to twist it. Gotta love those "lying for Jesus folks."
Shermana
Heretic
I usually find that those who think you don't have to have good behavior are the most likely to ignore facts and tell a lie........Essentially they are preaching the same "license to sin" that even Paul warned about, despite what they may justify it as.
Shades-o-Blue
Member
I got the same kind of read on this.Seomthing abuot the simplicity and the humbleness of this... You just earned frubals
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Amen.
Even the devils believe in Christ, but what separates us from the devils? Obedience.
InChrist
Free4ever
Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:20
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:3-8
Clearly the scriptures show that right behavior and good works are a result of salvation and a new life in Christ. Christ-like behavior and good works demonstrate that ones life has been transformed by Christ. I do not deny their importance. Yet, I get the impression you are depending upon your good works for your righteousness. I am not sure you understand or believe the words of Christ, It is finished, in reference to His completed work for our salvation or that it is His righteousness not our own that gains access to the Father and eternal life. I believe the scriptures are clear that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Im just concerned that you are attempting to approach God through your own self-effort rather than trusting Jesus Christ. If ones foundation is not on Christ alone then all ones efforts are vain, self-righteous and as the scriptures say filthy rags.
Shermana
Heretic
No, it says "justified THROUGH works". What kind of good works are exclusive to a saved Christian that an Atheist and Buddhist wouldn't do? If Good works are a sign of a saved Christian, what kind of good works specifically are exclusive to them? How do I tell who is a saved Christian through what types of works specifically? Or are details not important? Are we talking giving charity? Everyone gives charity. Somehow I have a feeling your idea of "Good works" is merely "talking about Jesus".
"It is finished" did not refer to the termination of the Law, it refered to him finishing his job as the Atoning sacrifice, the Guilt offering.
If Jesus is the way, that means you have to actually obey EVERYTHING he teaches. And that includes obedience to the commandments. What did he say to the Rich man?
If I don't "Depend" on my works, what does that mean? That I can do whatever I want and still be "saved"? I'll bet many adulterers would love that position.
"It is finished" did not refer to the termination of the Law, it refered to him finishing his job as the Atoning sacrifice, the Guilt offering.
If Jesus is the way, that means you have to actually obey EVERYTHING he teaches. And that includes obedience to the commandments. What did he say to the Rich man?
If I don't "Depend" on my works, what does that mean? That I can do whatever I want and still be "saved"? I'll bet many adulterers would love that position.
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Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
That is true....in a great many ways.
We have to take him up on his offer, by our actions and faith.
He offers "Unconditionaly" we must "accept" unconditionally.
Gaura Priya
IRL
In the Vaishnava understanding, what is greater than desiring to go to 'Heaven' (whether that be the various conceptions of Svargaloka, Vaikuntha, or even Goloka), is to desire for God's desire, to love Him and to try to serve Him, regardless of Heaven or Hell.
na dhanam na janam na sundarim
kavitam va jagadisha kamaye
mama janmani janmanishvare
bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi
O my Lord, I do not wish for wealth, followers, beautiful women, or salvation. Rather, I desire to serve you with unconditional loving devotion (bhakti, causeless devotional service) birth after birth.
The sentiment or mentality that we develop is that even if we have to go to Hell, as long as we can serve Lord Vishnu by chanting His names, remembering Him, speaking often about Him, etc. we can develop that relationship with God and be in His presence even now. God is not an order-supplier, although He gives according to the desires of the heart... but the best gift we can offer Him is unconditional love in humility.
na dhanam na janam na sundarim
kavitam va jagadisha kamaye
mama janmani janmanishvare
bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi
O my Lord, I do not wish for wealth, followers, beautiful women, or salvation. Rather, I desire to serve you with unconditional loving devotion (bhakti, causeless devotional service) birth after birth.
The sentiment or mentality that we develop is that even if we have to go to Hell, as long as we can serve Lord Vishnu by chanting His names, remembering Him, speaking often about Him, etc. we can develop that relationship with God and be in His presence even now. God is not an order-supplier, although He gives according to the desires of the heart... but the best gift we can offer Him is unconditional love in humility.
Shades-o-Blue
Member
I've been following this exchange between you and InChrist, and I've got to say that I'm impressed with your grasp on faith & works. You've explained things so well, that I've felt it would be wise to just stay out of it. Thank you for your insights.
InChrist
Free4ever
Well, having been a proud Mormon at one time working my way to the Celestial kingdom and godhood, I understand your perspective and how difficult it is to give the credit and glory to Christ.
InChrist
Free4ever
The works that flow from a changed heart and attitude are exclusive to a saved Christian and are the fruit of the Spirit. Yes, the unsaved may do good works sometimes, but only the saved have the ability to walk in the Spirit and have their lives transformed more and more into the image of Christ over the long haul. It is only God who is the Judge and knows one's heart and motives. If you think walking in the Spirit or living by faith means "I can do whatever I want" then you don't even have a basic understanding of a life submitted to Christ as your Savior each day.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Gal. 5:16-26
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
Romans 4;1-8
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
LOL! That's a good one, InChrist. I just love how "real Christians" figure that the end justifies the means, and that it's totally acceptable in Christ's eyes for them to misrepresent other people's beliefs. What a pathetic belief system.
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Shermana
Heretic
Wow what a bunch of vaguery.
That's actually correct, but this would mean they'd become Torah obedient Jews. Which you're not.
Romans 4:1-8 does not say "Their sins are covered so now they may commit them again".
Have you read Hebrews 10:26? You can't continue to sin and still be saved.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
This is one of my favorite little religious stories of all time
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The old monk sat by the side of the road. With his eyes closed, his legs crossed and his hands folded in his lap, he sat. In deep meditation, he sat.
Suddenly his zazen was interrupted by the harsh and demanding voice of a samurai warrior. "Old man! Teach me about heaven and hell!"
At first, as though he had not heard, there was no perceptible response from the monk. But gradually he began to open his eyes, the faintest hint of a smile playing around the corners of his mouth as the samurai stood there, waiting impatiently, growing more and more agitated with each passing second.
"You wish to know the secrets of heaven and hell?" replied the monk at last. "You who are so unkempt. You whose hands and feet are covered with dirt. You whose hair is uncombed, whose breath is foul, whose sword is all rusty and neglected. You who are ugly and whose mother dresses you funny. You would ask me of heaven and hell?"
The samurai uttered a vile curse. He drew his sword and raised it high above his head. His face turned to crimson and the veins on his neck stood out in bold relief as he prepared to sever the monk's head from its shoulders.
"That is hell," said the old monk gently, just as the sword began its descent. In that fraction of a second, the samurai was overcome with amazement, awe, compassion and love for this gentle being who had dared to risk his very life to give him such a teaching. He stopped his sword in mid-flight and his eyes filled with grateful tears.
"And that," said the monk, "is heaven."
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Heaven and Hell are within. You have been in and out of both already
That is life and death according to the way Jesus defines it. Both states are present in the material and the spiritual plane of existence.
Me Myself
Back to my username
I am not sure if they meant the same thing.
To keep the subject further though, while Jesus said that only through him could one go to the Father, he also never said that it was a requirement to worship him or pray to him and he did forgive verybody that wished him the cross while he was walking towards his crucifixion.
this would easily mean that Jesus doesn´t need our aproval so he can forgive us, nor waits for it. So to those that think praying worshiping or beleiving in Jesus is a requirement for their sins to be forgiven (and thus entering to heaven) know Jesus didn´t think that way when he forgave those who wished him the cross.
Most likely even the worst people today will have Jesus in the sky saying "forgive them father, because they don´t know what they are doing".
Just remember to do good works (when you fed those that were hungry, you fed me) and he´ll be happy to have you there.
Otherwise, Shaol (which means indetermined, not "eternal" hell)