What does it take to get to Heaven?

[waitasec]

pardon me but, isn't obedience considered works...?

 

[.lava]

I believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;
second, Repentance;
third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins by one holding the proper priesthood authority;
fourth, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands again by someone holding the proper priesthood authority,
and fifth, enduring to the end.

According to Qur'an answer would be "Desire to reach God itself." in other words whoever wishes to reach God earns heaven

.

 

[smidjit]

You find those other three things difficult? It doesn't seem to me that they're a whole lot to ask. And repentence, in particular... why on earth do you believe that Jesus Christ would atone for the sins of someone who didn't even repent of those sins?

Because we go to heaven because of what he did, not for what we do.

 

[smidjit]

[FONT=&quot]I apologize if I have offended you and you feel I misrepresented your beliefs. I only know from my own experience that the Mormon religious system is works-oriented. This fosters pride and self-righteousness. I saw it in myself and others and the Bible shows this to be the case.[/FONT]

Amen to that

 

[sojourner]

it curious to me that if heaven is for everyone, why the need to control people who do not adhere to a religious belief?
why subject a group based on their gender?

I can't imagine.

 

[Shermana]

Because we go to heaven because of what he did, not for what we do.

So you can murder, steal, and commit adultery and still go to heaven?

Do you believe Isaiah 66 takes place after Yashua's atoning sacrifice?

 

[sojourner]

So you can murder, steal, and commit adultery and still go to heaven?

Short answer: Yes.

 

[Shermana]

Short answer: Yes.

And no repentance necessary?

I can certainly see why this brand of "Christianity" is appealing to murderers, adulterers, thieves, defrauders, and liars.

Why does Jesus say its better to drown yourself than "offend" (not "Put a stumbling block before" but "offend") a little one?

 

[Katzpur]

Because we go to heaven because of what he did, not for what we do.

We go to Heaven because He loves us, but the fact that He loves us does not give us license to blatently disregard His commandments. I believe it's absolutely impossible for a human being to live in such a way that he doesn't need a Savior. On the other hand, I see it as rather presumptuous for anyone to claim that he has faith in Christ unless he is willing to take Christ's name upon himself and be faithful to Christ.

 

[InChrist]

Okay, so what does 1 John 3:4-10 mean? What is the definition of sin there?

What does Romans 2:13 mean?

Hebrews 10:26 says what it says, anyone who continues to live in sin has no more sacrifice for them. So what does "sin" mean?

What is the point of repentance?

Those might help you put the rest of your verses in context.

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:4-10 says, “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The commandments which are required to prevent lawlessness and unrighteousness are defined by Jesus. When one is living by the Spirit and producing the fruit of the Spirit as outlined in Gal. Ch. 5, loving God and neighbor they are practicing righteousness and fulfilling the law of Christ, by His strength and by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by following a set of rules.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
So he answered and said, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” Luke 10:25-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I would say “sin” is an act of willfully doing what one knows to wrong or what God has shown or said to be wrong. Repentance is the act of being sincerely sorry for and turning away from sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am just curious. Do you consider yourself to be living a sinless life?[/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

by His strength and by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by following a set of rules.

So what does 1 John 5:3 mean?

[FONT="]and sin is lawlessness[/FONT]

So what is lawlessness? If there's a "Law" and there's "Lawlessness", how can you possibly logically conclude that there's no "Set of rules" involved?

If the Law is simply Love your neighbor, are you now allowed to Seance with the dead? Can you eat meat sacrificed to idols? Can you fornicate freely as long as its consentual?

Why does Jesus say its better to chop your hand off than use it to cause you to enter the fire?

What was Jesus's reply to the Rich man when he asked him "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life"? What did Jesus ask him?

Sin is clearly outlined as "Lawlessness". The "Will of the Father" is the "Commandments". Obedience is his will. Quite explicitly.
Whether or not I live sinless life or not is irrelevent to the conversation. I try my best to but I remember to repent when I fail as you are commanded to.

 

[smidjit]

So you can murder, steal, and commit adultery and still go to heaven?

You mean like Moses and King David?

Do you believe Isaiah 66 takes place after Yashua's atoning sacrifice?

Like I said, God's people are very capable of committing heinous crimes. Moses and David were both murderers, and God excused their crimes.

 

[smidjit]

We go to Heaven because He loves us, but the fact that He loves us does not give us license to blatently disregard His commandments. I believe it's absolutely impossible for a human being to live in such a way that he doesn't need a Savior. On the other hand, I see it as rather presumptuous for anyone to claim that he has faith in Christ unless he is willing to take Christ's name upon himself and be faithful to Christ.

Maybe you lower the standard so that you can achieve it. God on the other hand does not grade by human standards. If you want to merit heaven on your behavior then it has to equal the one who sets the standard. That being the only one who did it all perfectly. If you cannot claim Christlike obedience 24/7 then I'm afraid you have fallen below the acceptable standard and are guilty of violating it.

 

[Shermana]

You mean like Moses and King David?



Like I said, God's people are very capable of committing heinous crimes. Moses and David were both murderers, and God excused their crimes.

Moses' case is up to debate whether he murdered or was saving the Israelite's life. Either way, Moses was not exempt from curses. He did not even get to live to see the Holy Land because he didn't give the Father the glory over the rock-spring.

King David was cursed with terrible curses, most of his life was in shame, on the run, and in civil war due to his sons. Where does it say they were excused?

Everyone must pay their consequences.

 

[InChrist]

I think it's important for you to acknowledge, publicly, that we (LDS) don't rely solely on the Bible. Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't make it sound as if we are somehow deficient or inferior just because we have more scriptures.

I do publicly acknowledge that Mormonism does not solely rely on the Bible. That is the reason it is not Christian or biblical and that is all I am saying. I have not said you are deficient or inferior.

 

[Shades-o-Blue]

I do publicly acknowledge that Mormonism does not solely rely on the Bible. That is the reason it is not Christian or biblical and that is all I am saying. I have not said you are deficient or inferior.

But we are Christian. We're just not Christian by your standards.

 

[Mister Emu]

To the topic question...

The grace of God.

 

[InChrist]

So what does 1 John 5:3 mean?

So what is lawlessness? If there's a "Law" and there's "Lawlessness", how can you possibly logically conclude that there's no "Set of rules" involved?

If the Law is simply Love your neighbor, are you now allowed to Seance with the dead? Can you eat meat sacrificed to idols? Can you fornicate freely as long as its consentual?

Why does Jesus say its better to chop your hand off than use it to cause you to enter the fire?

What was Jesus's reply to the Rich man when he asked him "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life"? What did Jesus ask him?

Sin is clearly outlined as "Lawlessness". The "Will of the Father" is the "Commandments". Obedience is his will. Quite explicitly.
Whether or not I live sinless life or not is irrelevent to the conversation. I try my best to but I remember to repent when I fail as you are commanded to.

[FONT=&quot]I thought it was relevant to ask if you are living a sinless life because according to your perspective which is one of dependence on law-keeping then if you break any commandment or sin at all wouldn’t that mean you are lawless?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I accept the entire Bible and do not consider the commandments or anything in God’s Word unimportant. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim. 3:16-17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The commandments show God’s character, perfection and standard. They also show how far short humans fall. I know from reading God’s word He does not approve of stealing, idols or demonic occult practices, etc. By reading His word my mind is transformed and by being submitted to Christ and walking in the Spirit I do not break the commandments. How would anyone break God’s commandments if they are following the Holy Spirit? Would the Spirit of God lead a person to break a commandment? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If and when I take my eyes off Christ and sin, I too, confess and repent. The difference is that my hope is in the righteousness of Christ and His perfect fulfillment of all God’s law not my own righteousness or ability, because I don’t have any other than His.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Maybe you can give me a reference to the particular rich man passage you are referring to.[/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

How would anyone break God’s commandments if they are following the Holy Spirit?

Exactly. Therefore, anyone who believes they are guided by it while not honoring the Sabbath for example is not being guided. Jesus did not do away with the Sabbath any more than he did away with rule against Occult practices, he merely showed what was allowed on the Sabbath in emergency situations as opposed to the false Pharisee regulations.

Do you believe Isaiah 66 takes place the crucifixion?

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe you lower the standard so that you can achieve it.

What? How am I lowering the standard? If anything, I'm raising it! And why would you think I was suggesting that I believe we can attain Heaven on our own merits? After all, I specifically said, "I believe it's absolutely impossible for a human being to live in such a way that he doesn't need a Savior." You are accusing me of saying the opposite of what I actually said.

God on the other hand does not grade by human standards.

God doesn't grade, period.

If you want to merit heaven on your behavior then it has to equal the one who sets the standard. That being the only one who did it all perfectly. If you cannot claim Christlike obedience 24/7 then I'm afraid you have fallen below the acceptable standard and are guilty of violating it.

Good grief. I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to tell me what I said, then quote me. Don't even attempt to paraphrase me, because you suck at it.