What does it take to get to Heaven?

[Muffled]

The atonement of Christ isn't going to force you anywhere, you may be saved depending on whether you want to be saved or not.

You may be saved but that doesn't guarantee that you will go to Heaven.

 

[Shermana]

You may be saved but that doesn't guarantee that you will go to Heaven.

So what does it mean to be saved in the first place, and why does Paul say "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Why does Yashua say its better to cut off your hand than go with two hands into the fire? Why would he say such things to people who already believed in him and thus, in mainstream logic, would already be "saved"?

 

[Shades-o-Blue]

Yaddoe,

I'm probably not as well read on LDS theology as I ought to be so I would like to ask you and other Mormons here a simple question: do you believe that there is any such place as "Hell"? (I'm referring to the Protestant doctrine of "Hell", which is the abode of the wicked, a place of eternal torment for the damned, including Satan and his wicked servants for those who don't know what I mean)

Here is the nutshell explanation from lds.org

"Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ."

 

[Erebus]

To get to Heaven? Basically, it takes being born and never committing the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That's not to say that this is all it takes to receive all of the blessings God has in store for those who faithfully and righteously serve Him and their fellow men.

Hi I don't know a great deal about Mormonism. What would blasphemy against the Holy Ghost entail?


In response to the OP: I'm agnostic when it comes to an afterlife. I have some ideas of what might happen, but the most important thing is to find heaven in this life.
If you can leave yourself a totem in this world to come back to, that's even better

 

[sojourner]

The atonement of Christ isn't going to force you anywhere, you may be saved depending on whether you want to be saved or not.

Well, since this is God's ball game, I'd have to say that it's not at all about what we want, but about what God wants. That's what Jesus prayed in the garden, after all...

 

[sojourner]

It seems to me that most people here are buying into various shades of legalism as a means to "attain" something. Salvation isn't "attained" but "given." Grace is a gift that is offered to all -- regardless of skin color, sex, orientation, belief, acts, nationality, or brand of deodorant. God will save whom God will save.

Since Jesus effected the reconciliation of humanity, it's up to us to act as if we are reconciled. In other words, stop grasping for power, stop seeking revenge, stop hating and dividing and ridiculing and judging and crucifying others, and live as if we were all members of one, big, reconciled family.

One doesn't "get into heaven," as if by pressing a couple of Jacksons into the palm of a rather imposing and dull-witted door-stop. Heaven isn't some Studio 54 (or even a club 57!) Heaven is created as we live now the life of love and acceptance that Jesus taught us to live.

All of this posturing and laying out of "ground rules" is ridiculous. This isn't a "who's in/who's out" proposition. We're all in, because that's the way God wants it.

 

[smidjit]

I believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;
second, Repentance;
third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins by one holding the proper priesthood authority;
fourth, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands again by someone holding the proper priesthood authority,
and fifth, enduring to the end.

You should have stopped at the first one. You are making things a bit to difficult for my palate.

 

[Muffled]

So what does it mean to be saved in the first place, and why does Paul say "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Why does Yashua say its better to cut off your hand than go with two hands into the fire? Why would he say such things to people who already believed in him and thus, in mainstream logic, would already be "saved"?

It means saved from sin.

I am not going to speculate on Paul's motives. However from a theological point of view, the fact remains that we are still sinners and are apt to thow Jesus off the throne of our lives when temptation comes. The work is in ignoring the temptations. However even in that work we have help.

To start with, this is not a private teaching for Christians but a public teaching for everyone listening. Second it is a matter of priorities. If being Jewish causes a person to stumble and not accept Jesus, is it really better to go to Hell knowing that you have clung to your Judaism? I don't think it is likely to happen but some people are that stubborn.

 

[Katzpur]

You may be saved but that doesn't guarantee that you will go to Heaven.

Where would a person go if he was saved? To Hell?

 

[Katzpur]

Hi I don't know a great deal about Mormonism. What would blasphemy against the Holy Ghost entail?

All Christians use this phrase, which is said to describe the one sin which supposedly cannot be forgiven. The problem is, they don't seem to be able to agree as to what it actually means, and the scriptures really don't spell it out in much detail. So, while another Christian might explain it differently, here's the LDS perspective...

The LDS understanding of "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" is "willfully denying Christ after having received a perfect knowledge of Him from the Holy Ghost." The key word here is "perfect." Very few human beings have ever lived who have had a perfect knowledge of Christ. In other words, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the denial of the truth when it comes in such a form that it would be essentially "undeniable." All of us walk in faith. We believe what we believe because of faith, and not because we have absolute proof. But consider the Apostles Peter, James and John. They were present at Christ's Transfiguration. They were witnesses to an event that could hardly be explained to be anything other than absolute proof that God exists and that Jesus Christ was His Only Begotten Son. Had they denied what they saw that day, in light of the reality of it, they (according to LDS doctrine) would have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. So, to us, the number of people who have every lived who have even been in a position to be able to do so is miniscule.

 

[Katzpur]

You should have stopped at the first one. You are making things a bit to difficult for my palate.

You find those other three things difficult? It doesn't seem to me that they're a whole lot to ask. And repentence, in particular... why on earth do you believe that Jesus Christ would atone for the sins of someone who didn't even repent of those sins?

 

[Erebus]

All Christians use this phrase, which is said to describe the one sin which supposedly cannot be forgiven. The problem is, they don't seem to be able to agree as to what it actually means, and the scriptures really don't spell it out in much detail. So, while another Christian might explain it differently, here's the LDS perspective...

The LDS understanding of "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" is "willfully denying Christ after having received a perfect knowledge of Him from the Holy Ghost." The key word here is "perfect." Very few human beings have ever lived who have had a perfect knowledge of Christ. In other words, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the denial of the truth when it comes in such a form that it would be essentially "undeniable." All of us walk in faith. We believe what we believe because of faith, and not because we have absolute proof. But consider the Apostles Peter, James and John. They were present at Christ's Transfiguration. They were witnesses to an event that could hardly be explained to be anything other than absolute proof that God exists and that Jesus Christ was His Only Begotten Son. Had they denied what they saw that day, in light of the reality of it, they (according to LDS doctrine) would have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. So, to us, the number of people who have every lived who have even been in a position to be able to do so is miniscule.

Ok that makes sense. If I understand correctly then by those beliefs 99.9% of humanity gets into heaven eventually as I'm guessing if God brought out the big guns (so to speak) it'd be pretty hard to deny it. Certainly a more pleasant attitude than some of the other denominations IMO.

Thankyou for explaining it

 

[Katzpur]

Ok that makes sense. If I understand correctly then by those beliefs 99.9% of humanity gets into heaven eventually as I'm guessing if God brought out the big guns (so to speak) it'd be pretty hard to deny it.

I guess that's a pretty good way of putting it.

Certainly a more pleasant attitude than some of the other denominations IMO.

I agree. That particular doctrine is, to me, extremely compelling.

Thankyou for explaining it

No problem.

 

[Shermana]

It means saved from sin.

I am not going to speculate on Paul's motives. However from a theological point of view, the fact remains that we are still sinners and are apt to thow Jesus off the throne of our lives when temptation comes. The work is in ignoring the temptations. However even in that work we have help.

To start with, this is not a private teaching for Christians but a public teaching for everyone listening. Second it is a matter of priorities. If being Jewish causes a person to stumble and not accept Jesus, is it really better to go to Hell knowing that you have clung to your Judaism? I don't think it is likely to happen but some people are that stubborn.

Wow. I asked "What does saved from sin" mean and your answer is "Saved from sin". And that's supposed to answer the question I see. If anything this shows "Christians" just repeat phrases without knowing what they mean.

And what does "Saved from sin" mean? That you no longer sin? That your sins no longer are counted as sins? That you can now sin like a madman while being "saved" from the consequences? I'll take "Continue to WORK OUT" your Salvation as what it means, that Salvation is a process, that involves repentance and "Showing it through deeds". There'd be no point in "Enduring til the end" or "Striving for the narrow gate" if all you need is faith.

A lot of Jews refuse to accept Jesus because of people who incorrectly say that the Law is Abolished by "fulfilled" and that Jesus was the incarnation of G-d, representing false doctrines that Jesus hates as if they were the truth. The judgment of Jews who have no faith in Christ will be better than the Lukewarm and Lawless who claim to believe. The work is not just ignoring temptation, because "temptations" themselves are rooted in sin.

And what is sin according to 1 John 3?

 

[waitasec]

it curious to me that if heaven is for everyone, why the need to control people who do not adhere to a religious belief?
why subject a group based on their gender?

 

[beenie]

This is one of my favorite little religious stories of all time :


-----------------

The old monk sat by the side of the road. With his eyes closed, his legs crossed and his hands folded in his lap, he sat. In deep meditation, he sat.

Suddenly his zazen was interrupted by the harsh and demanding voice of a samurai warrior. "Old man! Teach me about heaven and hell!"

At first, as though he had not heard, there was no perceptible response from the monk. But gradually he began to open his eyes, the faintest hint of a smile playing around the corners of his mouth as the samurai stood there, waiting impatiently, growing more and more agitated with each passing second.

"You wish to know the secrets of heaven and hell?" replied the monk at last. "You who are so unkempt. You whose hands and feet are covered with dirt. You whose hair is uncombed, whose breath is foul, whose sword is all rusty and neglected. You who are ugly and whose mother dresses you funny. You would ask me of heaven and hell?"

The samurai uttered a vile curse. He drew his sword and raised it high above his head. His face turned to crimson and the veins on his neck stood out in bold relief as he prepared to sever the monk's head from its shoulders.

"That is hell," said the old monk gently, just as the sword began its descent. In that fraction of a second, the samurai was overcome with amazement, awe, compassion and love for this gentle being who had dared to risk his very life to give him such a teaching. He stopped his sword in mid-flight and his eyes filled with grateful tears.

"And that," said the monk, "is heaven."

-----------------

Heaven and Hell are within. You have been in and out of both already

That's beautiful.

 

[InChrist]

LOL! That's a good one, InChrist. I just love how "real Christians" figure that the end justifies the means, and that it's totally acceptable in Christ's eyes for them to misrepresent other people's beliefs. What a pathetic belief system.

[FONT=&quot]I apologize if I have offended you and you feel I misrepresented your beliefs. I only know from my own experience that the Mormon religious system is works-oriented. This fosters pride and self-righteousness. I saw it in myself and others and the Bible shows this to be the case.[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

Wow what a bunch of vaguery.

That's actually correct, but this would mean they'd become Torah obedient Jews. Which you're not.

Romans 4:1-8 does not say "Their sins are covered so now they may commit them again".

Have you read Hebrews 10:26? You can't continue to sin and still be saved.

I hope you were referring to my words as vague and not God’s Word.

I have never said that I think a person can have their sins covered and then proceed to continue willfully committing sin. Of course, believers still sin at times as long as they are still in the flesh on the earth and anyone who says they don’t sin is calling God a liar (1 John 1:8-10) The verse you cited Hebrews 10:26 is referring to deliberate, willful sin and apostasy in rejecting God’s truth and provision in Christ. If one rejects Christ and His sacrifice, insulting the Spirit of grace, then there remains nothing but judgment for their sins.

I have to disagree with you that one who is saved and walking in the Spirit would or should become a Torah obedient Jew. For a born-again believer to put themselves under the Law of Moses is to live carnally in the flesh. The law was given for the ungodly, a ministry of condemnation to expose sin, and as a tutor to lead a person to Christ the Savior. According to the scriptures when one is saved the old man is crucified, dead, buried with Christ and risen as a new creation. (Romans 6-8:16; Col.3:3; 2 Cor. 5:17)

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:1-4

A believer is now to live under the law of Christ and avoid sin by walking in the Spirit. The sins we are to stop practicing are sins of the flesh listed in bold in the passage below. A believer’s life is to then show the behaviors which are the fruit of the Spirit.




[FONT=&quot]For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Gal. 5:13-26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What you do and tell others they should be doing is remain under the law as a principle of living or a place of right standing before God. But the scriptures show that this is impossible and it is in opposition to the way God has in place for believers to live now.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“If a Christian is under the law as a "rule of life," he is laboring in a doleful, grey, alien land of self-righteousness--he struggles to produce. The believer who learns to walk in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has the joy of the Lord for his strength--he rests to receive.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Instead of our Father demanding from us according to the law, by grace He ministers to us from the One who is our life in glory. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (2 Cor. 9:8).”[/FONT]
“The Christian who is walking after the flesh is walking under law, and therefore is doomed to failure. Law applies to the fleshly life, but there is no good thing in that nature; it is neither subject to the law, nor can it be (Rom. 7:18; 8:7). The carnal believer is depending upon fleshly means for deliverance from fleshly failure; he is looking for strength from the very source from which he is seeking deliverance.”

Excerpts from; Apostle Paul's Teaching on the Law

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so what does 1 John 3:4-10 mean? What is the definition of sin there?

What does Romans 2:13 mean?

Hebrews 10:26 says what it says, anyone who continues to live in sin has no more sacrifice for them. So what does "sin" mean?

What is the point of repentance?

Those might help you put the rest of your verses in context.

 

[Katzpur]

[FONT=&quot]I apologize if I have offended you and you feel I misrepresented your beliefs.

Whatever. If I thought for one minute that that was a sincere apology, I'd accept it. From what I've seen of you so far, let's just say that I'm highly skeptical.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I only know form my own experience that the Mormon religious system is works-oriented.

It's obedience-oriented. Too bad you have a problem with that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

This fosters pride and self-righteousness. I saw it in myself and others and the Bible shows this to be the case.[/FONT]

To me and to every other Mormon I know, there is nothing self-rightous about keeping God's commandments. Now calling 14 million people who worship Jesus Christ as their Savior "non-Christian" -- that's something I'd call "self-righteous."