nazz
Doubting Thomas
Rephrasing it that way I can agree.
I don't think it is so much that people would choose suffering and torment as much as they might not realize there is a way out of it.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What gives your 'God' the right to damn? What condones burning for eternity?
- Thread starter DistinctReason
- Start date
Rephrasing it that way I can agree.
I don't think it is so much that people would choose suffering and torment as much as they might not realize there is a way out of it.
No, my claim is that "punishment for not loving the ultimatum maker" isn't a part of it in the first place. Hell is NOT a place of punishment by an angry, masochistic God, as it is in much of Protestant belief. Hell is rather a state of self-imposed suffering. Those who experience Hell are those who openly, freely and knowingly choose to reject any love given to them by anyone. Those who experience Hell are so depraved that they willfully and knowingly choose to cut themselves off from every other person and from God, just because they would rather sit there and stew in their misery and hatred rather than letting go of their negative feelings and loving others. Hell is choosing to be depressed and gloomy all the time, saying "Woe is me" while everyone else around them is having fun and living life. And, as long as we continue to want to be in Hell, the more we see others filled with love and happiness, the more we continue to develop blind hatred and prejudice for them. Hatred is nothing more than destruction, division and separation--all of which are also synonymous with Hell.
Hell is NOT a set of external punishments foisted upon us by a tyrannical, megalomaniacal God out for our blood if we don't obey Him like good little monkeys. Hell is an internal experience that we create for ourselves when presented with the love and presence of God and other people. It's not a torture chamber where we unwillingly have tortures performed on us by another person. Hell is an actively desired state of relational separation from everything else in the world. It has nothing to do whatsoever with ultimatums.
Last edited:
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Ah, so by the above no one will experience hell.
Except Angelina Jolie. I mean, seriously, who's gonna choose to reject any love given to them my Angelina Jolie?
We can certainly hope so. But I've no doubt that there are people who simply love to be hateful and miserable--history and the news give us many examples of such people. The Scriptures DO say that Hell is (or was originally) for the devil and his angels.
Harari Rajul
Member
From an Islamic perspective, The Creator has the right to do anything; God owns everything and owes nothing to anyone. Everything is owned by Allah (literally meaning "The God"). Everything is The Creator's property and, accordingly, The Creator can do whatever with anything. Injustice is to do that which one is not entitled to do. Since The Creator owns everything, The Creator is entitled to do whatever. To draw this closer, if one took an item of yours away and did something (without your permission), this is something the person did not have the right to do. The Creator owns you and me, as well as everything we "own" in this temporal life, so The Creator is not ordered by anyone or restricted from anything. Whatever endowment one receives, it is by The Creator's Generosity (as The Creator was never obligated to give anyone anything, whether a breathe of air, sip of water, or morsel of food, all of it is from The Creator's Generosity). Whatever one is afflicted with, such as a natural disaster, is from The Creator's Justice, as injustice is (intellectually) inconceivable from The Creator. Some people say The Creator is evil because of a catastrophe, but this is nothing but an illogical argument predicated on an emotional impulse to whatever occurred. They believe God owes them tranquility or serenity...which is certainly not the case. Hell is a place reserved for non-Muslims, as this is what is indicated in the Religious Texts.
idea
Question Everything
God is actually cleaning up a mess He did not create - the word "create" in the Bible is not correctly understood - the Bible does not teach ex-Nihlo creationism, it begins with unorganized matter. Our spirits are as eternal as God's.
True free will only exists for eternal beings - because if you are created, as you correctly said, everything could be traced back to how you were created. Our free will is evidence of our eternal nature.
Yes, we really have free will. There is more to us than nature and nurture. To say we are only products of our DNA (nature) is racist, and racism is looked down upon because we all recognize that we are more than our DNA... To say our actions are dictated by nurture is embracing classicism - everyone knows we are not bound by where we grew up, or who our parents are... talk to anyone who is a parent, and they will tell you they don't know where their children came from - because our children are unique, with a mind of their own.
We break out of this cycle, because we really do have free will.
agreed.
I agree that no one is born evil, but our birth is not our beginning.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee...
ultimately our actions are a product of our eternal spirit - not of nature, not of nurture, but of who we really are. In this life, or in the next, we will all have the same opportunity to come to a full knowledge, and make an informed choice on what kind of existence we would like. Those who do not choose love, peace, and harmony (and this will be few in number, if any at all) will not be resurrected to a physical body - they will remain as spirits unable to touch or harm anyone. (Why evil spirits are so unhappy about not having a body).
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Which is exactly why I don't believe in Allah.....
I never asked to live, nor exist....
The way you've described Allah is like describing a kid who constructs an ant farm. None of the ants asked to be in the ant farm yet the kid has the ability to disrupt the natural order of the ant farm because he/she can. God in Islam and how it is expressed by Muslims such as yourself is the reason some become disinterested in the faith. You explain Allah's punishment as a guideline because such and such person didn't follow it.
If Allah is "Rabbil Alamin" then surely a religion on a planet the size of a grain of sand is nothing but a particular element apart of that sand, nothing more. But religion for God in Islam seems to encompass so much because religion and a belief in Allah is deterimental....How you express God in your belief makes your God rather small as opposed to the Lord of the Universe.
My idea of Hell.....
Did anyone watch the movie "The Prophecy?"
When Lucifer (played by Viggo Mortensen) said the following:
"Do you know what Hell really is, Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight, of having His word taken from you."
While Allah is concerned with punishing people by pouring boiling water down the souls throats, the fact that one is furthest from God is painful enough and that to me is hell. I lost a mother who was very dear to me from cancer, and so if the love that emnantes from God is 1 million times greater than the love my mother expressed to me and I am removed from that love then what is fire and boiling water when I am furthest from the thing I want to be next to?
Last edited:
This is one reason why I'm a Christian and not a Muslim. Islam tends to emphasize God as rather uncaring towards humans and not very loving. Christianity, as I understand it, emphasizes God's love and care for humanity and that He suffers with us. He understands our pain and will help us through it if we but call out to Him. Islam doesn't have that view, from what I can see. The way you describe it, Islam's view of God is rather cold. If I had to be a Muslim, I'd be a Sufi since they seem to have a "warmer" view of God.
[/QUOTE]
I see hell as a man made lie created by man in the early church to scare ignorant people to believe. The words in the Bible comes from paganism and do not line up to balance what God is doing in the Bible. The belief in hell makes Jesus a monster; which He is not.
SpiritualFreedom1
Member
I don't believe that heaven is a place for good people, and hell is a place for bad.
I believe that hell is basically, here and now, on earth. Hell being a separation from God. Those who chose to live an earthly existence will simply remain separated after death. I actually don't think "being good" is the point of our lives, but rather improving as human beings, and becoming more God like in order to suit God's needs in the next level of existence. Part of that is obviously being good to others, but there's more to that. Letting go of earthly trappings for one thing.
This is what I believe Jesus meant when he said he's the only way to heaven. Not that Christianity is the ONLY true religion, but that his example is the perfect demonstration of how one should live life and view death.
It's not that God has chosen in some uncaring way to damn those who don't believe, it's that those who cling to the earth, and chose not to improve themselves in a spiritual way, will be unfit to enter "heaven", whatever that may be.
Maybe you aren't dammed, so much as sent back here to try again on our earthly little ball of hell. But then again, how many chances do you think we get?
I believe that hell is basically, here and now, on earth. Hell being a separation from God. Those who chose to live an earthly existence will simply remain separated after death. I actually don't think "being good" is the point of our lives, but rather improving as human beings, and becoming more God like in order to suit God's needs in the next level of existence. Part of that is obviously being good to others, but there's more to that. Letting go of earthly trappings for one thing.
This is what I believe Jesus meant when he said he's the only way to heaven. Not that Christianity is the ONLY true religion, but that his example is the perfect demonstration of how one should live life and view death.
It's not that God has chosen in some uncaring way to damn those who don't believe, it's that those who cling to the earth, and chose not to improve themselves in a spiritual way, will be unfit to enter "heaven", whatever that may be.
Maybe you aren't dammed, so much as sent back here to try again on our earthly little ball of hell. But then again, how many chances do you think we get?
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
The Prophecy line reminds me of a of Dogma, when the Demon explains that at first hell was just a place for angels who had been cast out and it was agony enough, but then Humans started showing up because they believed they deserved to be there and they ended up creating their own punishments and turned a place of darkness into a place of suffering. Given human compunction for believing that we deserve to be punish for what we do...I'm not surprised.
The word punish in the Greek means to prune or chastise
First of all, define "Hell."
Second, Hell doesn't make Jesus a monster in the least, nor was "scaring" people into believing a common tactic among early Christians.
Plus, to deny Hell, one would either have to deny Jesus' words and warnings, or posit that God erases people from existence--something that is even more merciless than Hell, because it removes any chance of eventually embracing God and being purified of sin. Forcing Heaven on everyone is to deny us free will. The belief in reincarnation trivializes death, which is one of the central problems presented in the Bible.
The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.
She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of Gods people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of Gods holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by Gods holy judgment.
Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of Gods people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of Gods holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by Gods holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word BROTHER.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.
It sure does.
That is what the Lake of Fire is for and it is spiritual place not a physical place.
No one is forcing heaven on no one. That is why there is a Lake of Devine purging.
Sense when did carnal man have freewill?
Did you choose your parents, color of skin, where you were born? NO. Adam chooses to fall and we do not freely choose our salvation. Freewill is a religious word and not found anywhere in scripture accept for the freewill offering in the OT which has nothing to do with what I am addressing above.
Esaurus
Member
Hello DistinctReason,
You said,
Why shouldnt you accept hope for life after death? Im certainly glad I did. You arent happy for people that lived in poverty and sorrow all their lives that embraced that hope? Arent you aware that this present life will end? Who is able to live without hope? Please beware not to place your hope in the wrong things.
You said,
Arent you aware that the Bible informs us that God made everything good and that the fall of man brought a curse? Adam and Eve started out innocent before they fell into temptation by their own choice. Think about a person that lives a straight life all of his life until he commits a murder. That single event would adversely affect him and those around him for the rest of his life. So did Adams rebellion affect the whole of mankind that descended from him. The fact that he was warned makes him without excuse. Sin brings a curse.
Hasnt a captain of a ship the right to punish disobedience? Such disobedience could possibly endanger the entire mission including the ship. The fact that the ships mission and the lives of all aboard weighs on the captains shoulder of responsibility is the reason that utmost respect for the captain is essential. The same is true with God thats the Captain of the universe that knows the number of your hairs. The greater the responsibility, the greater the insult to authority and thus the greater the consequences for disobedience.
You said,
Havent you read that all have sinned? Isn't sin rebellion by free will? Who taught children to be evil if they were not born that way? How do you explain sibling rivalry? Is it necessary to teach a child to do things that necessitate punishment? Have you never done wrong? As for the blame game habits common this day, where did they originate? You said there are many reasons people do bad things. Whats the reasons, please? All are infected with sin.
Retarded people are still sinners.
I will discuss hell further down.
You said,
The fact that children are capable of doing evil is the reason they need to be corrected. All that are born sinners are culpable. Retarded and mentally ill people are still sinners. Some children are deliberately taught to do evil such as helping their parents to steal. Children in other parts of the world are given guns for military battle. The sinful nature they were born with is thus enhanced as if adding rocket power to a free fall.
I will talk about the devil in my next paragraph.
You said,
The devil has power only to tempt and deceive a person into self-destruction. The person that falls for the temptation does so by choice as you indicated. God allows the devil to tempt to test free will. Will the individual trust God to obey His word or will he disobey for lust for the bait?
You said,
God gives everyone the opportunity to repent throughout his lifetime. That's why preaching is necessary. The person that never hears a preached message has his conscience. Hell is the last resort for the person that never comes to repentance.
A person must be taught good and evil. His choice to be the type of person he becomes is based on his obedience or disobedience to the commandments. If for example a person steals, he chooses to become a thief.
Why did God create hell thats forever? If God lives forever and His created beings live forever, and that a created being rebels by choice and never reconciles himself before he dies, he is forever at odds with God by choice. The fact that God is omnipresent means that its impossible for the rebellious soul to truly separate from God. But the sin of rebellion has no place before God. Thats why God created hell. Even though the rebellious will forever be in the presence of God because God is omnipresent, the job of hell is to take all of the joy and satisfaction that comes with the presence of God away.
Wrong must be punished and God will never allow unpunished sin to ruin eternity as it ruined life on earth. The sinner that never repents has only ruined his own eternity. However, lets not forget that God has offered a way to escape sin as shown in St. John 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 3:9.
You said,
Have you ever designed and built a machine that operates in a way that you dont understand? How has the police the right to judge us for wrong? Aren't there laws that govern us?
Take care,
Earl
You said,
Why shouldnt you accept hope for life after death? Im certainly glad I did. You arent happy for people that lived in poverty and sorrow all their lives that embraced that hope? Arent you aware that this present life will end? Who is able to live without hope? Please beware not to place your hope in the wrong things.
You said,
Arent you aware that the Bible informs us that God made everything good and that the fall of man brought a curse? Adam and Eve started out innocent before they fell into temptation by their own choice. Think about a person that lives a straight life all of his life until he commits a murder. That single event would adversely affect him and those around him for the rest of his life. So did Adams rebellion affect the whole of mankind that descended from him. The fact that he was warned makes him without excuse. Sin brings a curse.
Hasnt a captain of a ship the right to punish disobedience? Such disobedience could possibly endanger the entire mission including the ship. The fact that the ships mission and the lives of all aboard weighs on the captains shoulder of responsibility is the reason that utmost respect for the captain is essential. The same is true with God thats the Captain of the universe that knows the number of your hairs. The greater the responsibility, the greater the insult to authority and thus the greater the consequences for disobedience.
You said,
Havent you read that all have sinned? Isn't sin rebellion by free will? Who taught children to be evil if they were not born that way? How do you explain sibling rivalry? Is it necessary to teach a child to do things that necessitate punishment? Have you never done wrong? As for the blame game habits common this day, where did they originate? You said there are many reasons people do bad things. Whats the reasons, please? All are infected with sin.
Retarded people are still sinners.
I will discuss hell further down.
You said,
The fact that children are capable of doing evil is the reason they need to be corrected. All that are born sinners are culpable. Retarded and mentally ill people are still sinners. Some children are deliberately taught to do evil such as helping their parents to steal. Children in other parts of the world are given guns for military battle. The sinful nature they were born with is thus enhanced as if adding rocket power to a free fall.
I will talk about the devil in my next paragraph.
You said,
The devil has power only to tempt and deceive a person into self-destruction. The person that falls for the temptation does so by choice as you indicated. God allows the devil to tempt to test free will. Will the individual trust God to obey His word or will he disobey for lust for the bait?
You said,
God gives everyone the opportunity to repent throughout his lifetime. That's why preaching is necessary. The person that never hears a preached message has his conscience. Hell is the last resort for the person that never comes to repentance.
A person must be taught good and evil. His choice to be the type of person he becomes is based on his obedience or disobedience to the commandments. If for example a person steals, he chooses to become a thief.
Why did God create hell thats forever? If God lives forever and His created beings live forever, and that a created being rebels by choice and never reconciles himself before he dies, he is forever at odds with God by choice. The fact that God is omnipresent means that its impossible for the rebellious soul to truly separate from God. But the sin of rebellion has no place before God. Thats why God created hell. Even though the rebellious will forever be in the presence of God because God is omnipresent, the job of hell is to take all of the joy and satisfaction that comes with the presence of God away.
Wrong must be punished and God will never allow unpunished sin to ruin eternity as it ruined life on earth. The sinner that never repents has only ruined his own eternity. However, lets not forget that God has offered a way to escape sin as shown in St. John 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 3:9.
You said,
Have you ever designed and built a machine that operates in a way that you dont understand? How has the police the right to judge us for wrong? Aren't there laws that govern us?
Take care,
Earl