Warren Clark
Informer
There is a hypothesis that goes with the belief that our consciousness is a soul. That our consciousness goes elsewhere where our body cannot.
This hypothesis cannot be tested, so I cannot say I believe it holds any truth.
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What Happens When You Die?
- Thread starter godnotgod
- Start date
There is a hypothesis that goes with the belief that our consciousness is a soul. That our consciousness goes elsewhere where our body cannot.
This hypothesis cannot be tested, so I cannot say I believe it holds any truth.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
Why? Even if you think you are the butterfly dreaming it is a man, then you still only have this existence to refer to. Present proof in this world, or pack it in.
By the way. Your sentences that I altered to red and blue......contradict each other.
If they are identifiable only within the confines of one person's mind, then they are a belief, a fantasy, a dream (no matter how pleasant); and as such, they are defined as NOT verifiable.As I said. You are your own history that you leave after you are gone (locally, or on the grand scale).
Humanity, "social accretions" (which sounds like 'interactive boogers' :areyoucra ), and all of history are not what make you. However, they all played a part in forming you. And you in turn can and do shape them. That is your legacy. That is all anyone can verify as having been you.
Agreed.
No I have not. I am always willing to consider any presented knowledge. Just not whimsy/dogma from those who claim to have the answers.
Ivan-Michael
Member
You are funny,
So I have to 'open' my mind and accept that Chopra is great or in case I don't I have a problem, great logic.
What school taught this kind of logic?
Molech perhaps?
I watched five minutes of this charlatan, too much, I like the way he plays on your mind, soon he'd like all men to discover their feminine side and become whatever, what a Klotz.
Ivan-Michael
Member
Really, really be 'Free'?
Chopra can do that for me?
He must be very powerful, all knowing being, is he the new Jesus?
Chopra can do that for me?
He must be very powerful, all knowing being, is he the new Jesus?
godnotgod
Thou art That
I never said Chopra can do that for you. You are adding things in that are not there just to make the truth fit your own teeth. What I said was:
"He is trying to show you a way out of the human dilemma of suffering, and to really be free."
If you don't understand the difference between someone showing you the way so that you can see, and doing it for you, then you had best return to Logic 101.
But you do understand, don't you? You were just being coy, weren't you?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ah, so you have a problem with your sexuality and manhood! So sorry! When you resolve it, please return here so we can have a more meaningful discussion.
Molech? Show me the legitimacy of your analogy of Chopra's logic to that of Molech. You don't need Chopra to play on your mind. You do a fine job of that yourself.
The bottom line here is that you refuse to go see what all the fuss is about. You are like the prisoners in Plato's Cave who, when told of the Sun outside their cave, refuse to go see for themselves.
Chopra happens to be a bona-fide medical doctor, trained and certified in the West, as well as an ayurvedist, amongst other things. I would hardly call him a charlatan. Just because he has become wealthy from the sale of his books does not make him a charlatan. St. Paul was a charlatan. Too bad you can't see the difference.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
No I have not. I am always willing to consider any presented knowledge. Just not whimsy/dogma from those who claim to have the answers.
Yes...you have. If you don't know, fine. Say so and leave it at that. But don't assume that those who claim they know something beyond your limited systems of Logic and Reason don't know either just because your system can't provide the answers you seek also don't know. You are applying your method of thinking to an area where it does not apply.
It is one thing to say: "I have the truth and you simply must believe without question". That is clearly dogma.
That is your position when you said: "I don't know and [therefore] you don't either" You are not offering any proof of your claim, and are going against your own logic. Or don't you see that?
On the other hand, the mystic is saying: " I have discovered something and want to share it with you, but for you to see it you need to look with an open mind. I invite you to come see for yourself. If you do, that is OK; if not, that also is OK. There is no doctrine I am peddling that you need to believe in."
All the mystics are saying is that there is something beyond what you know intellectually.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Why? Even if you think you are the butterfly dreaming it is a man, then you still only have this existence to refer to. Present proof in this world, or pack it in.
By the way. Your sentences that I altered to red and blue......contradict each other.
There is no contradiction. Your assumption that the experience occurs 'only within the confines of one person's mind' is where your error lies. The experience is transcendent of self and of the limited thinking mind and its personal view. The view is transformed into a universal view, in which what one sees is consistent with what anyone else sees. You continue to be on the outside looking in and making assumptions and judgments based on your limited understanding, if it can be called that. Once again: you want proof based on Logic and Reason when the experience in question is outside both.
You have been indoctrinated to believe that Logic and Reason are somehow superior forms of knowledge. That is false, and there is much resistance to seeing any other way outside their confines. Unfortunately, ego is attached to these two in a big way. Don't misunderstand: Logic and Reason have their place, but they cannot show us the true nature of reality, in this case, what happens when one dies. You see, the problem is inherent in the basic question, because it assumes the validity of linear time. Chopra's answer, if you have been paying attention, points to a state outside of linear time.
The spiritual experience of awakening is neither dream, belief, or fantasy. That is why it is called 'awakening'. When you awaken from a dream, you realize that it was, in fact, a dream, and not real.
The same is true from the state of Waking Sleep to that of the next level of conscious awareness, that of Self-Transcendence.
godnotgod
Thou art That
In the context of the topic, Chopra is not saying that consciousness 'goes anywhere'; he clearly says he 'returns to where he has ALWAYS BEEN'. In other words, consciousness is always present; the body is what comes and goes, so actually, there is no 'return'; that is just a figure of speech. One has never left, to be more accurate.
godnotgod
Thou art That
I see. So we are nothing but egos dragging around a dead corpse, a 'has-been', based on the past.
So what was that prior to your having accumulated your 'history', and when you shed it at death? Not-you? :biglaugh:
An illusion also comes and goes, just as your history and body do. So what is the difference? Did they ever exist? Did YOU ever exist? Do you even now exist, considering that what you call "I" just comes and goes, no more permanent than a sub-atomic particle that has the briefest 'existence'?
The Human Route
Coming empty-handed,
going empty-handed -- that is human.
When you are born, where do you come from?
When you die, where do you go?
Life is like a floating cloud which appears.
Death is like a floating cloud which disappears.
The floating cloud itself originally does not exist.
Life and death, coming and going, are also like that.
But there is one thing which always remains clear.
It is pure and clear, not depending on life and death.
Then what is the one pure and clear thing?
By Zen Master Seung Sahn
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Again, you are adding your own twist to what I actually DID say, which was that you should open your mind so that you can hear Chopra's message, which, if you had any understanding at all, you would realize that it has nothing to do with Chopra himself. It is not his personal view; it comes from a universal place in consciousness.
Someone points to the moon, but instead of looking at the moon, you attack their pointing finger.
It's a knee-jerk thingie.
Higher Conscioiusness can cure these types of maladies.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Really? Can you tell me exactly who, or what, is it that is reborn?
Have you considered making efforts to get off the wheel?
Birth comes out of that which is unborn. If you are born, you will die. If, as you say, reincarnation is an endless cycle, then so is death. Coming and going; that is the lot of those subject to reincarnation.
Can you show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going?
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That is true. I do not disagree with anything of what you are saying, except that, I feel that the easy rejection of the ego-self that is touted by neo teachers and spread around by the disciples is not real.
Getting rid of the ego-self is the toughest part of the sadhana, at the end of which only 'no effort required' stage can come. The Self Realisation is very very special and as per scripture is rarest of the rare thing.
Leftimies
Dwelling in the Principle
You transfer from the realm of existence to realm of nonexistence. I have no idea what is it like. but the more you start to think what is to exist, you start to think that when we die...we will simply start to nonexist. calm down, no panic...isn't nonexistence, too, in a way existence?
Warren Clark
Informer
Then what is memory? Does it not exist with our consciousness? If not then what is consciousness with out memory? Why can I not remember what was before my body?
Warren Clark
Informer
godnotgod
Thou art That
Memory is data and information stored in the brain's memory banks. It is used by consciousness when consciousness calls it forth. But consciousness itself has no memory; no history, because it dwells in the present moment, where no history, no memory are to be found.
Who you are before the body is who you have always been, and who you continue to be in this present moment, but that awareness is obscured by your immersion in Identification; that is to say, immersion in the person or character you only think yourself to be.
That which sees without thought, without memory, without history, without attachment to birth or death, is who you really are.
Most of the world is asleep in Identification, thinking they are fully awake. Spiritual awakening is the key to seeing that there is a higher state of conscious awareness, and that Identification is that which is being dreamt.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Neither do in and of themselves because they both are based upon the past. Either can be used to arrive at a particular threshold, but both must ultimately be transcended and surpassed.