What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[Trailblazer]

ah but the animals are also soul and spirit

According to my beliefs animals have an animal spirit but they do not have a rational soul.

 

[Truthseeker]

There's a non-canonical story about Peter and a heretic named Simon Magus...

Simon Magus challenged Peter publicly in front of the Emperor Nero and a crowd, saying that he would fly as proof of his doctrines. And amazingly, he did fly!​

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Of course, it was not by the power of God but of Satan, which Peter quickly proved. Peter knelt down and prayed that God would stop Simon, which God did – right in mid-air. From high above the crowd, Simon suddenly lost his power of flight and fell to the ground, breaking his legs, and died soon after.​

​

People flying, animals talking, a wooden staff turning into a snake, dead people coming out of their graves in Jerusalem, the Sun stopping, Elijah flying into space on a fiery chariot. These were all believed then and some people still believe them.

And they must be believed, because otherwise the miracles of Jesus would be called into question also. So, what can you do? Their faith in the Bible, God and Jesus all depends on those stories being true.

Simon Magus was in Acts, but I've never heard that story before. It could be that non-canonical story within whatever book that was in was considered too fantastic by those who decided what the Canon was. They were not stupid.

 

[Truthseeker]

Or... it's not a metaphor but just a fictional story. Baha'is, maybe not TB, need the stories to be symbolic. Most Christians need them to be true.

I'm going with fictional, because of the way they were written and believed by the early Church. They were written as if they were actual, historical events. Like when they think he was a ghost, he let's them touch him. When there is the possibility of the disciples stealing the body and claiming he rose from the dead, a guard is sent to watch the tomb.

i don't really know if @Trailblazer believes it's a metaphoric story. But I doubt it. She's arguing on their terms.

 

[Trailblazer]

i don't really know if @Trailblazer believes it's a metaphoric story. But I doubt it. She's arguing on their terms.

I do not believe it's a metaphorical story. I believe it is a made up story, pure fiction.
I cannot believe that the writers of the NT believed it was true since it is patently false.

Imo, Abdu'l-Baha should have come right out and said that the resurrection stories are false as written rather than trying to turn it into a metaphorical story. That only makes him look foolish since the stories were not intended to be a metaphor.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not believe it's a metaphorical story. I believe it is a made up story, pure fiction.
I cannot believe that the writers of the NT believed it was true since it is patently false.

Imo, Abdu'l-Baha should have come right out and said that the resurrection stories are false as written rather than trying to turn it into a metaphorical story. That only makes him look foolish since the stories were not intended to be a metaphor.

He didn't say one way or another. That has been the problem with understanding this for me. He didn't show each element of the Biblical story was symbolic or say they were fiction. In that way he was catering to the audience apparently. Letting the audience decide and not get offended either way.

The virgin birth is a miracle that I believe in, so why could they believe the rising up to heaven was another miracle? The trouble is, they didn't realize that the spiritual heaven was not up there somewhere. With today's science we know that.

I've been so busy on the internet today, I haven't had supper. It is 11:17 my time. I never eat supper this late.

 

[Trailblazer]

He didn't say one way or another. That has been the problem with understanding this for me. He didn't show each element of the Biblical story was symbolic or say they were fiction. In that way he was catering to the audience apparently. Letting the audience decide and not get offended either way.

True to form, Abdu'l-Baha was trying to cater to the audience by not flat out saying the resurrection stories are false.

I've been so busy on the internet today, I haven't had supper. It is 11:17 my time. I never eat supper this late.

I rarely eat dinner before 11 pm.

 

[Truthseeker]

I rarely eat dinner before 11 pm.

I've heard that before from you. It would be midnight your time and you would eat dinner then.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

ah but the animals are also soul and spirit

I see it more like this.

Creation of the vegetable kingdom including the mineral and vegetable is annointed with the vegetable spirit, the power of growth

The animals are born of the vegetable spirit and are annointed of the animal spirit with is the power of the senses

Man is born of the vegetable and Animal Spirit and is annointed with the Human Spirit which is the power of the Rational Soul.

The spirit of faith is our connection to the Holy Spirit.

The Manifestations are born of the vegetable, animal and human spirit, but are annointed of the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[LeftyLen]

There is only one God, the Father. Jesus was the Son of God, not God the Father.

The Return of Christ

Quality and quantity is Not the same thing Jesus forewarned us that MANY would prove false to him - see Matthew 7:21-23 Sure, a lot don’t know his true nature. Hopefully they will though.

www.religiousforums.com

In the roman trinity, Jesus seems to be a part of God that 'broke off'

 

[cataway]

I see it more like this.

Creation of the vegetable kingdom including the mineral and vegetable is annointed with the vegetable spirit, the power of growth

The animals are born of the vegetable spirit and are anointed of the animal spirit with is the power of the senses

Man is born of the vegetable and Animal Spirit and is anointed with the Human Spirit which is the power of the Rational Soul.

The spirit of faith is our connection to the Holy Spirit.

The Manifestations are born of the vegetable, animal and human spirit, but are anointed of the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

Ecclesiastes 3:19​

19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

odd nothing was said about vegetable spirit. we could go through the bible from cover to cover and never find any thing about vegetable spirit. do vegetable's go to heaven to ?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ecclesiastes 3:19​

19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

odd nothing was said about vegetable spirit. we could go through the bible from cover to cover and never find any thing about vegetable spirit. do vegetable's go to heaven to ?

The Bible did not fully disclosed this truth, but it is enshrined in the verse you have supplied and when other Biblical verses are contemplated, the same level of spirit is offered, we also see these levels of spirit interacting in the material world.

This is why as Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing, as all born of the vegetable, animal and human spirit are born in perishable bodies. That includes the Messengers, that includes Jesus.

No one escapes the first death, vegitable,or animal, or human, so read that quoted passage knowing that, and it gives us a hint that we must become part of the living, that is born again as spiritual beings.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead here, are the spiritually dead, they know nothing, but the spiritually aware, know of the first death and of the 2nd death.

Now as a human Jesus said we need to be born again and as such the first death can not overtake us, this is via the spirit of faith.

Verses such as this.

"1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but ...For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God" This is born again via the Spirit of Faith into the Word of God.

The Messengers are already born of the Holy Spirit (this to me is the virgin birth), all the Messengers are already eternal, not perishable and we need connection with them via the spirit of faith, then the 1st death will not overtake us, which is the passing of the flesh, not the human spirit, which is our consciousness as a rational soul.

I also see the vegitable and animal spirit does not die, both of these spirits also continue to exist in the spiritual worlds to come, I see even our pets will have a spiritual form.

Stands to reason as both the dream world's and NDE experiences, describe beauty of gradens and animals and human Love beyond explanations.

Big topic that can go on to discuss in many tangents.

Regards Tony

 

[Ebionite]

And Isa (a) was "killed" in appearance not actuality. It was a feign death, a normal human would've died, yes. And the reason he feigned it so it can be a sign and proof so that people believe more so and have greater faith.

It wasn't him on the cross. Zechariah and the Psalms describe two men in relation to the crucifixion, and Isaiah describes the righteous servant being rescued.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the roman trinity, Jesus seems to be a part of God that 'broke off'

I do not believe that God can be divided into parts and that parts can break off.
I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God who manifested God on earth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And Isa (a) was "killed" in appearance not actuality. It was a feign death, a normal human would've died, yes. And the reason he feigned it so it can be a sign and proof so that people believe more so and have greater faith.

You have to know an Imam doesn't die unless he wishes to but they submit to God and God doesn't tell them to die either, so it's more they are doing what they think is best for God and his will.

As Isa (a), it looked like he was dead, but he was not. Since he is the king from offspring of David (a) promised to rule, he could not die. To say he died would be denial that he is the promised Messiah.

I see Islam has an incorrect interpretation of this event.

The flesh is perishable and does die. You cannot kill Christ, which is the God given Cause of Creation, Jesus dies in tge flesh and rose in the Holy Spirit.

The Bible also offers we can share in that eternal Spirit by being born again in Faith by embracing Christ.

The Christ Spirit was Annointed again to the Messenger Muhammad, some 600 years later, as per the Book of Revelation.

Regards Tony

 

[cataway]

The Bible did not fully disclosed this truth, but it is enshrined in the verse you have supplied and when other Biblical verses are contemplated, the same level of spirit is offered, we also see these levels of spirit interacting in the material world.

This is why as Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing, as all born of the vegetable, animal and human spirit are born in perishable bodies. That includes the Messengers, that includes Jesus.

No one escapes the first death, vegitable,or animal, or human, so read that quoted passage knowing that, and it gives us a hint that we must become part of the living, that is born again as spiritual beings.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead here, are the spiritually dead, they know nothing, but the spiritually aware, know of the first death and of the 2nd death.

Now as a human Jesus said we need to be born again and as such the first death can not overtake us, this is via the spirit of faith.

Verses such as this.

"1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but ...For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God" This is born again via the Spirit of Faith into the Word of God.

The Messengers are already born of the Holy Spirit (this to me is the virgin birth), all the Messengers are already eternal, not perishable and we need connection with them via the spirit of faith, then the 1st death will not overtake us, which is the passing of the flesh, not the human spirit, which is our consciousness as a rational soul.

I also see the vegitable and animal spirit does not die, both of these spirits also continue to exist in the spiritual worlds to come, I see even our pets will have a spiritual form.

Stands to reason as both the dream world's and NDE experiences, describe beauty of gradens and animals and human Love beyond explanations.

Big topic that can go on to discuss in many tangents.

Regards Tony

thank you for using Ecclesiastes 9:5 ''For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.''

you have testified against your self

 

[TransmutingSoul]

thank you for using Ecclesiastes 9:5 ''For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.''

you have testified against your self

That is a sad response.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Christ Spirit was Annointed again to the Messenger Muhammad, some 600 years later, as per the Book of Revelation.

Yes, according to the Baha'is. But does Islam agree with you? If Muhammad was prophesied in the Book of Revelation, I would think Muslims would have known about it and made sure the world knew about it. But I did a search and couldn't find anything about Islam claiming that.

So, why is that? Other than it's a Baha'i invention that Muhammad and Ali are the "Two Witnesses", and Muhammad is the first "Woe" and the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the second and third.

And, as usual, please show they fit the context of those verses in Revelation.

Rev 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”​

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Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​

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Rev 11:1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.​

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7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.​

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11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.​

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13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.​

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14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

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So, all that happens in chapter 9 is about the first "Woe". Up until verse 12, then it's all about the second "Woe" which Baha'is claim is the Bab. So, that is all of chapter 10 and all of chapter 11 up to verse 14. But the "Two Witnesses" are part of what happens during this supposed time of the Bab. Care to explain it?

One Baha'i made the claim that the Revelation is not in chronological order. Yes, that would explain it... explain how Baha'is can take any verses and put them in any chronological order they feel like it. I hope you have something better than that.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is a sad response.

Regards Tony

I meant to address this earlier but today has been a very busy day, more than my usual busy days.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

You said: The dead here, are the spiritually dead, they know nothing, but the spiritually aware, know of the first death and of the 2nd death.

As I have told @cataway before, I believe that this verse is referring to dead bodies, not spiritually dead souls.

Living bodies know that they will die, but dead bodies know nothing because their body is dead so they no longer have a brain to know anything.

 

[cataway]

Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Romans 5:12

12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
g Ps 88:10; Ps 115:17; Ps 146:4; Isa 38:18; Joh 11:11

Psalm 88:10

10 Will you perform wonders for the dead?Can those powerless in death rise up to praise you? (Selah)
Psalm 115:17

17 The dead do not praise Jah;Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
Psalm 146:4

4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;On that very day his thoughts perish.
Isaiah 38:18

18 For the Grave cannot glorify you,Death cannot praise you.Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

 

[LeftyLen]

I do not believe that God can be divided into parts and that parts can break off.
I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God who manifested God on earth.

Issac newton, far from being an atheist stated, "The trinity is theological gibberish.' Jesus in the garden was not praying to Himself